FreeSCI in ScummVM

General chat related to ScummVM, adventure gaming, and so on.

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Threepwood
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FreeSCI in ScummVM

Post by Threepwood » Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:39 am

My question is: if I'm willing (and able) to add FreeSCI (glutton) to ScummVM, would you reject this? (as far as i know gpl i wouldn't even have to ask the freesci members) I know that until now there were a lot of discussion about that, but i can`t remember that somebody wanted to do it (only that people wanted it to be added).

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MetaFox
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Re: FreeSCI in ScummVM

Post by MetaFox » Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:21 pm

Threepwood wrote:My question is: if I'm willing (and able) to add FreeSCI (glutton) to ScummVM, would you reject this? (as far as i know gpl i wouldn't even have to ask the freesci members) I know that until now there were a lot of discussion about that, but i can`t remember that somebody wanted to do it (only that people wanted it to be added).
I'm not a member of the ScummVM team, but judging from the comments made by the team about the addition of the Sarien engine, I'd have to say this:

It would not be added without the permission of the FreeSCI team. Permission wouldn't need to be obtained legally speaking, but morally speaking the ScummVM team would do the right thing and seek permission from the original authors before adding the module to SVN.

I'd definitely get the opinions of the FreeSCI team before attempting such a thing, as your work could potentially go for naught if anyone in the FreeSCI team objects to your module.

I know that at least one of the core members of FreeSCI wouldn't be against a ScummVM FreeSCI module, as he stated as such when asked the question before. His opinion could have changed since then, however.

timofonic
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Post by timofonic » Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:42 pm

I'm only a ScummVM user since a few years and loving it, but I think FreeSCi being part of ScummVM could be very great. The last word of this is by ScummVM Team, but I hope this occour someday.

In the past, AGI was somewhat "alive", but now has been merged. Thanks to this, a new engine is added and the code base is very usable. The Sarien developers now benefit of the very portable backend infraestructure and a some nice devs maintaining it, so they only have to worry on their engine.

I see in SCI the same advantages as in AGI: FreeSCI developers will not worry about portability or bugs in the backend stuff, only worry about the engine. At the first it may be a pain in the ass porting the code to the ScummVM infraestructure and learning the new manner of coding, but then they will be part of a more knowed project, a lot more coders involved, more possible betatesters and only concentrating in the engine.

I think this can be great for FreeSCI since the development progress is a bit slower than usual, so the less work they will need to do in the code, the better.


Advantages:

- SCI engine ported to a lot more platforms.
- More possible betatesters.
- Being part of a lot more knowed project, a big one.
- Not worry about non-engine stuff after adapting the engine to the new infraestructure.
- More possible bugfixers.
- More possible developers because the project is more knowed.
- People want it since years!


Disadvantages:

- The code must be adapted to the new infraestucture and a motivated volunteer is needed for the task (it seems there are some volunteers now).
- Developers must learn the new coding manners of the ScummVM Team.
- The next release will be release later until the SCI engine goes stable on ScummVM (like on AGI).

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Kaminari
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Post by Kaminari » Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:37 am

Disadvantages:

- The support team is going to be swamped with bug reports, since that would be the first time a large public forum is opened for FreeSCI discussions (not counting Mega Tokyo).

oduverne
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Post by oduverne » Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:47 am

I definitely think that you should ask to the freesci team.
It wouldn't be interesting to add a branch of freesci in scummvm if the freesci team wouldn't work on it. If so you would have to port every freesci changes to scummvm.

oduverne
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Post by oduverne » Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:34 am

Any news Threepwood?

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SuperDre
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Post by SuperDre » Thu May 31, 2007 5:10 pm

I just looked at the FreeSCI site, and it seems that FreeSCI is sadly as dead as a doornail..

So maybe it's good to port FreeSCI to ScummVM as AGI is also supported right now, that way we can play even more adventure games with ScummVM without the need for any other 'emulator'..

If I could find time I would even try to look at it myself..

fingolfin
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Post by fingolfin » Thu May 31, 2007 5:51 pm

Seems we really need to add a "Why won't you merge FreeSCI?" entry to our FAQ.

Until we do that, please search this forum for the numerous thread where people asked this questions and where we explained why this won't help and won't happen.

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Post by SuperDre » Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:25 am

fingolfin wrote:Seems we really need to add a "Why won't you merge FreeSCI?" entry to our FAQ.

Until we do that, please search this forum for the numerous thread where people asked this questions and where we explained why this won't help and won't happen.
I did, but most where very old, and this one was the one which I thought was the most productive/serious. And also I checked the FreeSCI site to check if it was still active, but it seems it isn't. And after reading the threads there isn't a specific reason "Why won't you merge FreeSCI" other than time and resources.

fingolfin
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Post by fingolfin » Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:36 am

Two reasons: The FreeSCI team is not in favor, and there is nothing to be gained, since what FreeSCI is lacking is active developers, and those won't magically appear when "merging" it in. No AGI developers magically popped up when we merged Sarien, either!

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Adventureguy
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Post by Adventureguy » Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:35 pm

fingolfin wrote:No AGI developers magically popped up when we merged Sarien, either!
What about df? He was, as he states an "old sarien codemonkey", and he joined ScummVM when AGI was supported. So at least one former Sarien developer joined. :)

comp1
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Post by comp1 » Fri Jun 01, 2007 3:12 pm

Isn't this just like any another new engine? The developers currently aren't interested, but if someone else wanted to, no problem? Well, it seems Threepwood wants to do it and there doesn't seem to be any reason not to support his effort. As far as FreeSCI, the overall engine's been dead quite some time and the PocketPC port is even in worse shape. And yes, the previous discussion on this topic is actually a good deal sparser than I remembered. And I guess I'm wondering how SCUMMVM is any less "clean room" than FreeSCI was.

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Post by fingolfin » Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:46 pm

ScummVM is not at all clean room, it is primarly based on reverse engineering efforts. Hence the current FreeSCI developers are apparently not willing to "merge". Since they have are *the* experts on the matter, it would make no sense to try to work without them.


df is indeed an "old sarien monkey", so that in fact confirms what I said -- he didn't magically pop up, he was already there.

Merging FreeSCI won't magically add features or fix bugs. It requires lots of hard work to do that. To do it, one has to learn lots and lots about the internals of SCI -- or already know about them.

Finally, FreeSCI is open source, too, so if you really want to work on SCI code -- why not do it there?

All in all, I still haven't heard any plausible explanation why "merging" FreeSCI would improve its shape in any way.

Finally, if somebody wanted to work on such a merge, that person would of course be free to do it, but we are not willing to perform such a "merge" (or, as it would be properly named, "fork") without the consent of the FreeSCI developers.

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Adventureguy
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Post by Adventureguy » Fri Jun 01, 2007 5:19 pm

Maybe if the FreeSCI team was allowed to use the ScummVM menu GUI code for themselves, it would be an improvement to start the SCI games within FreeSCI.

Or perhaps someone who has still contact to the FreeSCI team could ask them politely if they wanted to join the ScummVM team .

Or is it possible that the FreeSCI team don't want to work on their project anymore and it's just as dead as Sarien was? So then, they just have to say something like "OK, we quit. You guys at ScummVM can work with our code if you like." and you could start working on the SCI engine if you wished.

I don't want to force anyone to start implementing the SCI engine already. It may take time. But I believe that someday ScummVM will support the SCI engine. Just a matter of time.

btw.: I think I've read somewhere in the forum that somebody wanted to negotiate with the FreeSCI team about slowy integrating the reeSCI team to the ScummVM team, but that this could take a few months or years(?).

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Post by fingolfin » Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:21 pm

Adventureguy wrote:Maybe if the FreeSCI team was allowed to use the ScummVM menu GUI code for themselves, it would be an improvement to start the SCI games within FreeSCI.
Of course they are "allowed" to do that. And they were contacted by various people, but they don't have much interest in it (and our backend doesn't provide all funcationality they would like anyway).

Some guys were looking into porting FreeSCI to the ScummVM backend, but I haven't seen anything resulting from that in several months now.
Adventureguy wrote:Or perhaps someone who has still contact to the FreeSCI team could ask them politely if they wanted to join the ScummVM team .
They were asked by various people, from the ScummVM team and others, and they have no interest. Mostly for legal reasons, but also because they don't really seem to gain much / anything from that...

Adventureguy wrote: Or is it possible that the FreeSCI team don't want to work on their project anymore and it's just as dead as Sarien was? So then, they just have to say something like "OK, we quit. You guys at ScummVM can work with our code if you like." and you could start working on the SCI engine if you wished.
That seems not to be the case. But you are free to email them or contact them on IRC, of course, and find out yourself :-).
Adventureguy wrote: I don't want to force anyone to start implementing the SCI engine already. It may take time. But I believe that someday ScummVM will support the SCI engine. Just a matter of time.
Of course you are entitled to believe whatever you want. Just don't hold your breath on it :-). And I am infact not excluding the possibility of an SCI engine in ScummVM; not even that of an SCI engine based on FreeSCI. But it's unlikely to happen in the near future.
Adventureguy wrote: btw.: I think I've read somewhere in the forum that somebody wanted to negotiate with the FreeSCI team about slowy integrating the reeSCI team to the ScummVM team, but that this could take a few months or years(?).
Aye. Luckily, the freesci mailing list archives are open, too. And again, the FreeSCI team can easily be contacted via IRC and email. So, to all people who keep coming up with this "Why not merge FreeSCI into ScummVM" talks -- please take this advice to heart: The ball is in the FreeSCI team's yard, not ours. Go and ask *them* about it, not us, they are the correct people to talk to, not us.

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