New HE games on iOS

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pezhead53
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New HE games on iOS

Post by pezhead53 » Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:48 am

Just the other day, 7 more Humongous Entertainment games dropped on the iOS App Store. Unlike the other releases, which were reworked in house for mobile, these seem to be running on a modified version of ScummVM. I know it's becoming more and more common lately, but it's still great to see ScummVM being used and recognized in official releases.

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GeorgeQGreg
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Post by GeorgeQGreg » Wed Aug 19, 2015 3:34 am

Wait, all of them? Oh boy...

(The shitty part is, I think in theory the Nimbus SPUTM should support the other games besides the classics, bugs from unfinished implementation notwithstanding. Like the port of Race... which they put out anyway.)

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Post by Windows TV » Wed Aug 19, 2015 4:51 am

Our(nimbus) SPUTM, yes it could support all the games above Putt-Putt saves the Zoo and Pajama Sam 1(Freddi Fish 1 had an exception I think), because it was basically an update, new and improved features. I don't know to much detail on it, but could it do the classics? I think...would it have taken time yes. I remember having a talk on what was gonna happen with the classics but not much was said.

And btw the bug fixes that the Tommo version had in PuttRace was last minute fixes Brad could to do, and honestly I think Tommo made new ones...you do not wanna see the beta lol

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GeorgeQGreg
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Post by GeorgeQGreg » Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:11 pm

Well, the classics are fairly different from the newer titles, I don't know how cross-compatible you could make the engine, could you make one that can run such different versions? Maybe. I've seen a few other engines do it. (Off the top of my head, AGS, Mohawk, AGI)

zorbid
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Re: New HE games on iOS

Post by zorbid » Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:36 pm

pezhead53 wrote:Just the other day, 7 more Humongous Entertainment games dropped on the iOS App Store. Unlike the other releases, which were reworked in house for mobile, these seem to be running on a modified version of ScummVM. I know it's becoming more and more common lately, but it's still great to see ScummVM being used and recognized in official releases.
The bad news is, this is in violation of either or both the GPL and the iOS App Store policy :-/

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Re: New HE games on iOS

Post by GeorgeQGreg » Wed Oct 21, 2015 8:44 pm

zorbid wrote: blah blah blah quote...

The bad news is, this is in violation of either or both the GPL and the iOS App Store policy :-/
Didn't this already happen with ports of Flight of the Amazon Queen or Simon the Sorcerer too?

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Re: New HE games on iOS

Post by JenniBee » Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:31 am

zorbid wrote:
pezhead53 wrote:Just the other day, 7 more Humongous Entertainment games dropped on the iOS App Store. Unlike the other releases, which were reworked in house for mobile, these seem to be running on a modified version of ScummVM. I know it's becoming more and more common lately, but it's still great to see ScummVM being used and recognized in official releases.
The bad news is, this is in violation of either or both the GPL and the iOS App Store policy :-/
It's not really clear. Some people feel that the GPL v2 license is compatible with iTunes distribution, as it doesn't include the clause that was added in GPL v3 that prohibits modification through technological measures. ScummVM is still licensed under GPL v2.

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Post by zorbid » Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:52 pm

The GPLv2 prohibits restrictions beside the ones it imposes, and the app stores has its own, incompatible restrictions.

Unless you get all the copyright holders of the GPLed work to agree to re-license it for the App store, you can't publish it there.

I've also read that Apple rejected GPLed programs as a matter of policy.

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Post by JenniBee » Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:46 pm

zorbid wrote:I've also read that Apple rejected GPLed programs as a matter of policy.
That can't be the case. There's a lot of games on the app store that use ScummVM and have never had problems with Apple for being on iTunes (Simon the Sorcerer, Simon the Sorcerer 2, Flight of the Amazon Queen, Inherit the Earth, etc.).

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Post by GeorgeQGreg » Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:55 pm

*Didn't* those ports face problems with the GPL though? Not sure what came of that.

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Post by DrMcCoy » Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:34 pm

You're kinda mixing up three separate issues together here.

1) As far as I understand it (but I am not a lawyer), it's like this: the situation with the GPLv3 is quite clear. Due to its anti-tivoization clauses, it clashes with the concept of a closed system, like Apple's AppStore.

However, with the GPLv2, it is less clear. I have heard from people who say they wouldn't work together, and from people who say that you could argue a case where they would work together. But they all agree that this is merely the legal consequence of the wording of the GPLv2; it's relatively clear that the creators of the GPLv2 never meant to legitimize such closed systems. Cases like these are, after all, why the GPLv3 exists.

TL;DR: No GPLv3 software on the AppStore. Maybe GPLv2, depending on who you ask, but still morally murky.

2) However...there's a separate issue at play here. Apple's license also contains a clause that forbids an application to download further executable or interpreted code. This would arguably apply to the user-provided game data, since most of them contain some kind of scripts that would be interpreted by ScummVM. So a generic ScummVM is out of the question. A ScummVM with integrated game data that can only run a specific game, like Flight of the Amazon Queen, that would be okay under this clause, because that would be an integral part of the app.

3) Then, a separate, separate issue is potential GPL violations done by people who bundled a game with ScummVM, modified the code, and uploaded the result to the AppStore, but without releasing the full, corresponding sources. They are not violating Apple's license, and it's not an issue of the Apple license clashing with the GPL, but it's them plain old violating our copyright by now following the GPLv2. Because they absolutely have to provide their changed source (*).

(*) And in fact, their build files as well. Everything that's needed to recreate the binary package, which is what the GPL means with "complete corresponding machine-readable source code".

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Post by GeorgeQGreg » Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:11 pm

I'm not even sure how much they bothered to change at all... I've heard it's at least possible to bring up Scummvm's F5 menu, and that implies it might possible to return to the launcher... and then run whatever game you want! I know the cursor is still drawn in the game. (Like Scummvm on Android, for example.)

I don't have Apple anything, but for all I know, they could've just taken the build from here. (Would those even work on the App Store?)

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Post by DrMcCoy » Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:26 pm

GeorgeQGreg wrote:I'm not even sure how much they bothered to change at all...
Depends on who you mean. I didn't mention anyone in particular; I was talking in the general sense. There's several people/companies who bundled ScummVM with games. Some violated the GPL. Some didn't. Some changed a lot. Some didn't.

And no, I'm not going to discuss specific cases here. :)

Also, of course, everything apart from the "No user-provided code" also applies to the Google Play store thing, or whatever it was called, and other similar closed system stores.

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Post by GeorgeQGreg » Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:49 pm

Well, maybe I wasn't too clear, but I wonder if anything changed at all, or if it's vanilla Scummvm! Not knowing a thing about how things work in ios-land though, I'll not pass judgement there.

I know a bit about the Wii versions, those changed a bit. Perhaps most obviously, they added a rumble feature. I'm also aware that Scummvm probably couldn't be built with Nintendo dev tools, nor could the modified source be legally released. (Something about integration with Nintendo's libraries.) Ultimately, it was determined to be a violation of the GPL.

All that applies to Google Play? (How's Scummvm on Play then?) Off topic though...

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Post by zorbid » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:01 pm

Here's the FSF argument, taken from Engadget:
The argument revolves around the following clause in the GPL v2:

Each time you redistribute the Program (or any work based on the Program), the recipient automatically receives a license from the original licensor to copy, distribute or modify the Program subject to these terms and conditions. You may not impose any further restrictions on the recipients' exercise of the rights granted herein.

Now consider the App Store User Agreement:

(i) You may download and sync a Product for personal, noncommercial use on any Apple-branded products running iOS ("iOS Product") you own or control.

(ii) If you are a commercial enterprise or educational institution, you may download and sync a Product for use by either (a) a single individual on one or more iOS Product you own or control or (b) multiple individuals, on a single shared iOS Product you own or control.

(iii) You shall be able to store App Store Products from up to five different Accounts at a time on compatible iOS Products.


The FSF's legal council takes the stance that these are restrictions on what the user can do with software obtained from the App Store, so that's immediately a breach of the GPL.
I believe VLC was pulled on that ground.

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