We can no longer accept Paypal Donations

General chat related to ScummVM, adventure gaming, and so on.

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Ender
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We can no longer accept Paypal Donations

Post by Ender » Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:26 am

Edit: For the many people that have asked/suggested ways of appealing this with Paypal, we have tried. Please see our appeal, and Paypals reply for more information.

As regular ScummVM web-viewers may have noticed already, we have removed the Paypal button from our site and are no longer accepting donations. Paypal has informed us that all software capable of playing a game on a 'system it was not sold for' is in violation of their Acceptable Usage Policy.

(As a simple example of stupidity, the Paypal games AUP makes the Apple Intel Mac illegal, as the Intel Mac can via emulation run games originally designed for the PowerPC Mac - a completely incompatible hardware platform. Of course, I don't expect to see these vanishing from ebay any time soon...)

Please feel free to e-mail aup@paypal.com and express your disappointment at their policies... Which make absolutely no sense for a project like ScummVM, which is often actively assisted by the original game developers and studios. :)

We are investigating alternatives for a donation system, if any of our users have suggestions of reliable and open-source friendly systems please post in this thread.
Last edited by Ender on Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Kaminari
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Post by Kaminari » Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:16 am

I notice that the initiative comes from Sony, Sega and Nintendo. So, if I understand correctly, ScummVM is not acceptable to PayPal because it is able to run Maniac Mansion NES and Monkey Island Sega CD?

I wonder if the One Finger Salute is in violation of their AUP?

Ender
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Post by Ender » Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:47 am

Paypal have made no mention of this (and we weren't going to either... :P), as far as I understand the problem is just that we are a emulator. It doesn't matter whos games.
Kaminari wrote:I notice that the initiative comes from Sony, Sega and Nintendo. So, if I understand correctly, ScummVM is not acceptable to PayPal because it is able to run Maniac Mansion NES and Monkey Island Sega CD?

I wonder if the One Finger Salute is in violation of their AUP?

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Post by Morganoure » Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:30 am

PayPals policies are often difficult to understand. Like charging someone who accepts donations (with no limits attached to the software) with fees if the users account was used unauthorized. If it wouldn't be either the user loosing the password or PayPals security insufficient that leads to unauthorized use.

MoneyBookers is something I've used for years and is not widely spread, but reliable and has never caused the monthly problems I myself have with PayPal ;)

By the way: I bought Broken Sword 1+2 on eBay. The CDs from an official publisher (SoldOut if I remember correctly) came along with ScummVM on them. So not only official developers do encourage ScummVM, but official distributors ship it.
Current eBay article 290022372514 for example shows PayPal as a payment method, but the CD is from the distributor that uses ScummVM.

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clone2727
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Post by clone2727 » Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:07 pm

VirtualPC is a pc emulator (for the mac) made by Microsoft themselves. Are they going to stop selling Microsoft products on eBay?

Of course not. Microsoft would sue them for every penny PayPal has.

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Post by Morganoure » Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:25 pm

@clone2727: Virtual PC in itself doesn't allow you to run imports or Nintendo games on non-Nintendo hardware; I read the policy again and found only three topics, which are not about emulation in general, but could fit here:

"Devices that allow the play of import games on a domestic system are potentially infringing upon Sony's (SCEA) copyrights."

"Software emulators that play Nintendo games without Nintendo hardware are infringing items"
* but according to Kaminari ScummVM supports the MM NES version.

"Devices that allow the play of import games on a domestic system are infringing upon Sega's copyrights"
* but according to Kaminari ScummVM supports the MI Sega version.

If the thing about Nintendo would be correct and an emulator for Nintendo games would be infringing, I guess they would've already come at ScummVM. Same goes for SEGA.

The "proper" equivalent for Microsoft would probably: "selling computers that allow you to run import version of Microsoft Windows is infringing". Haha :D
On the other hand, Apple is quite succesful in stopping people to help others on how to run MacOSX on non-Apple-machines...

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clone2727
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Post by clone2727 » Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:04 pm

Yes but this line in the policy is the main one, I think:
Mod chips, Modified Game Consoles and Game Enhancers
You may not use PayPal to sell any device capable of permitting the play of pirated and/or imported games on a domestic system. Examples of such devices include:

* Mod chips and/or game consoles that have a mod chip-type device installed

* Game enhancers (which enable the play of import software and/or back up versions of software)

* Boot discs
You are right that the policy doesn't mention anything about Microsoft..

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Post by Morganoure » Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:37 pm

Hmmm "device" and the title of that paragraph sounded to me like hardware, not software. But I'm sure any lawyer of those three companies could turn it around in a way that it would fit anything ;)

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Post by Adventureguy » Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:26 pm

That's a shame that Paypal is so uncooperative. So, what will they do next? Maybe inform DOSBox as well that it's " software capable of playing a game on a 'system it was not sold for' "? Because the DOSBox project still uses Paypal as donation method. And DOSBox supports even more games than ScummVM could ever, so I'm wondering when Paypal also talks with the DOSBox project team.

Or maybe it's really just because of the Nintendo/Sega games that ScummVM supports Paypal is making fuzz about? Or maybe because of some ports? (e.g. PS2 port(Sony),PSP port(also Sony), Nintendo DS port and the Sega Dreamcast port)

Well, I don't know other Donation systems which are open-source friendly, but maybe you could accept donations via credit cards.

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clone2727
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Post by clone2727 » Wed Aug 30, 2006 8:39 pm

Morganoure wrote:Hmmm "device" and the title of that paragraph sounded to me like hardware, not software. But I'm sure any lawyer of those three companies could turn it around in a way that it would fit anything ;)
The import game part fits.
Adventureguy wrote:That's a shame that Paypal is so uncooperative. So, what will they do next? Maybe inform DOSBox as well that it's " software capable of playing a game on a 'system it was not sold for' "? Because the DOSBox project still uses Paypal as donation method. And DOSBox supports even more games than ScummVM could ever, so I'm wondering when Paypal also talks with the DOSBox project team.

Or maybe it's really just because of the Nintendo/Sega games that ScummVM supports Paypal is making fuzz about? Or maybe because of some ports? (e.g. PS2 port(Sony),PSP port(also Sony), Nintendo DS port and the Sega Dreamcast port)
VirtualPC allows games to be played on the mac.

The big part of all of this was the "scummgames" fiasco. That site now redirects to scummvm.org.

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Post by Adventureguy » Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:28 pm

clone2727 wrote:The big part of all of this was the "scummgames" fiasco. That site now redirects to scummvm.org.
You mean, because the website of that guy who sold that illegal ScummVM-DVD, scummgames.co.uk, which now redirects to scummvm.org, Paypal got a wrong impression about the project? Maybe they checked some complaints from the companies owning the rights of the games (e.g. LEC) about the scummgames.co.uk website (which is now redirecting to scummvm.org) and came to the (wrong!) conclusion, the ScummVM project sells illegal copies of the games.

Or they think that something like that (selling illegal games with ScummVM as interpreter) can happen again. But then, it's not fair to blame the ScummVM project itself for such abuses. :x
Last edited by Adventureguy on Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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clone2727
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Post by clone2727 » Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:03 pm

Adventureguy wrote:
clone2727 wrote:The big part of all of this was the "scummgames" fiasco. That site now redirects to scummvm.org.
You mean, because the website of that guy who sold that illegal ScummVM-DVD, scummvm.co.uk, which now redirects to scummgames.org, Paypal got a wrong impression about the project? Maybe they checked some complaints from the companies owning the rights of the games (e.g. LEC) about the scummgames.co.uk website (which is now redirecting to scummvm.org) and came to the (wrong!) conclusion, the ScummVM project sells illegal copies of the games.

Or they think that something like that (selling illegal games with ScummVM as interpreter) can happen again. But then, it's not fair to blame the ScummVM project itself for such abuses. :x
I believe they did. See this log of the irc.

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Post by Ender » Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:25 am

A few corrections - The scummgames fiasco may not be related, there is no evidence and Paypal denies it... I just find the timing a little too coincidental.

Morganoure: As I said in my earlier post, Paypal made no mention of any specific game or publisher... Although of course when they check the forums now they will. Technically, we do NOT run any code in Nintendo or Sega roms, we simply parse SCUMM opcodes which are NOT copyright of Nintendo or Sega in any way. We do not emulate any Nintendo or Sega hardware, therefore we do not infringe on their copyrights.

Of course this is a distinction that is lost on Paypal.

The Jungo's
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Post by The Jungo's » Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:40 am

I quite often use the RAD game tools, bink & smacker, and have used there donation system before, they use amazon for their donations, it might be worth checking out their policies

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Post by SithlordDK » Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:49 am

I hope this won't mean an end of ScummVM!?!? :( :shock:

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