Toonstruck Support - Listen ScummVM Team!

All the inane chatter goes in here. If you're curious about whether we will support a game, post HERE not in General Discussion :)

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clem
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Post by clem » Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:28 pm

SuperDre wrote: if ffmpeg-project includes the code for playing smacker videos, than why not incorporate it into scummvm, beats the hell out of having to convert every video to whatever format you need.. and looking at the previous information (which dates back to januari 2006) RAD-tools didn't tell them they couldn't make the player, I do recon they would have big problems with creating the compressor..
As far as I remember ScummVM asked RAD Tools and they said they didn't want a third party to write a player for SMK files. I guess it's similar to datafiles for very old games - the owners of the games probably won't sue, but that doesn't make it right to just take it unless they say it's ok.
SuperDre wrote:And let's not forget, there is no difference in using a converter to convert smk files into any other files, as there is in being able to play them, both have a different target, but both have implemented the decompressor..
There is a difference between using a (closed source) decompressor provided by RAD tools free of charge and rewriting and releasing it under the GPL.

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SuperDre
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Post by SuperDre » Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:50 pm

clem wrote:There is a difference between using a (closed source) decompressor provided by RAD tools free of charge and rewriting and releasing it under the GPL.
But ffmpeg has the source under (L)GPL with the smacker.c source already released a long time, so I guess it wouldn't be a problem, and for scummvm it would even be a problem solved as no more conversion needed for some games, and therefore people being able to play the old games directly using the original gamedata. (I don't know if some games which are released via scummvm have better visuals with the reencoded video's because they came directly from the original creators who used better compression now compared to back then, but I'm not sure)..

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DrMcCoy
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Post by DrMcCoy » Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:52 pm

Yuruka wrote:And I am confident enough to code it in a month.
Look, adding support for a game is a complicated task. Especially when reverse engineering is involved. Doing that in a month is, quite frankly, utopian.

But you know what? Surprise us. Nobody will complain if you do manage it in a month.

A few pointers:
Demo/Freeware versions of IDA Pro
Art of Assembly
REWiki
FreeVGA
Ralf Browns Interrupt List
Yuruka wrote:Do I get paid for it?
Of course not.
We work on this project out of fun and to scratch an itch, so to speak.

If doing that doesn't match your idea of fun, that don't.
Nobody can force you. Equally though, you can't force anyone else to do the things you want them to. :)
Yuruka wrote:Pay me some money and sure.
You don't seem to have grasped the FOSS mentality...
With this attitude, I'm not sure this project (or any similar FOSS project) is the right for your "work"
Yuruka wrote:I have a job, you know.
Well, considering you're 14, I don't think your job (if any) is that time-consuming...


In closing: Surprise us. If you do get Toonstruck working in a month, I'll be the first one to applaud.
But you won't get any monetary gain out of this. Only the fun and experience coming from working on a larger FOSS project. And maybe something you could put on your CV once you enter the real working world.

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Yuruka
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Post by Yuruka » Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:12 pm

14? Oopsie. I'm actually 17..

Must've put the wrong date in.

Well any way, I may have over exaggerated on a month time, I haven't done anything like it in ages so it was just a guesstimate really.

I'll checkup those links.

EDIT :

I like doing this stuff for (job) Experience, I don't care if I'm paid or not.

Even though I said "pay me and sure"

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LordHoto
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Post by LordHoto » Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:45 pm

Yuruka wrote: Well any way, I may have over exaggerated on a month time, I haven't done anything like it in ages so it was just a guesstimate really.
And of course since you had really much experience with such things 'ages ago', I guess you're able to show up quite a few references.

No really until you proof that you're able to do it in a month (or maybe two), I consider this a pretty much pointless talk.

Bottom line:
DrMcCoy wrote:Surprise us. If you do get Toonstruck working in a month, I'll be the first one to applaud.

fingolfin
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Post by fingolfin » Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:51 pm

SuperDre wrote: But ffmpeg has the source under (L)GPL with the smacker.c source already released a long time, so I guess it wouldn't be a problem, and for scummvm it would even be a problem solved as no more conversion needed for some games, and therefore people being able to play the old games directly using the original gamedata.
Yes, supporting smacker videos directly would be quite nice and convenient.

But for the rest: No, it is not that simple. That ffmpeg has a (L)GPL implementation doesn't make it legal to use it -- whether they even have the right to distribute that code has never been resolved. That nobody sued them doesn't mean nobody ever will. That you *guess* it wouldn't be a problem is not enough -- to be blunt, it is my hide that's at stakes, not yours :). So you may understand that I/we have a more conservative view point on this. We have been burned with legal issues in the past, so we are touchy about such things :/.

Still, your basic premise is of course right, direct smacker support would be convenient. We already tried several times to get permission from RAD to use a smacker decoder. If we ever get it, we'll make sure to include one. Until then, it won't happen.
Last edited by fingolfin on Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Vinterstum
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Post by Vinterstum » Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:02 pm

Yuruka wrote: Well any way, I may have over exaggerated on a month time, I haven't done anything like it in ages so it was just a guesstimate really.
Here's the thing: Downplaying the effort required to reimplement a game engine is pretty much a slap in the face of everyone here who HAS done such a job in the past.

Which is why people are reacting. So drop it :).

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sev
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Post by sev » Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:15 pm

Heh, my first big thing in ScummVM was RE'ing INSANE subsystem from the scratch. That took for me 2 months of sleepless nights. At that time I had something like 10+ years in professional IT, including 3+ years of RE experience....

Gob engine (for gob1 only) was done "just" in 6 months by a dedicated developer. At that time it was one of the smallest engines.


Eugene

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Yuruka
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Post by Yuruka » Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:26 pm

sev wrote:Heh, my first big thing in ScummVM was RE'ing INSANE subsystem from the scratch. That took for me 2 months of sleepless nights. At that time I had something like 10+ years in professional IT, including 3+ years of RE experience....

Gob engine (for gob1 only) was done "just" in 6 months by a dedicated developer. At that time it was one of the smallest engines.


Eugene
I wonder how long CMI and Broken 1/2 took...

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eriktorbjorn
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Post by eriktorbjorn » Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:47 am

Yuruka wrote: I wonder how long CMI and Broken 1/2 took...
I don't remember exactly, but the Broken Sword games became playable fairly quickly. Revolution Software gave us the original source code, so instead of reverse engineering it was the relatively simple task of rewriting the DirectX parts and trying to make sure that things work on big-endian and 64-bit systems. Of course, there have still been plenty of bug fixes and refinements since the games first became supported in ScummVM 0.6.0, but essentially they arrived fully supported, except for the Smacker cutscenes.

The Curse of Monkey Island was a much more gradual process. It inherits a lot of infrastructure from earlier SCUMM games. ScummVM 0.4.0 had experimental support for it more than five years ago, but even when it was completable a lot of little things weren't working quite right. Some pretty noticeable glitches in the music weren't fixed until ScummVM 0.11.1.

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marticus
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Post by marticus » Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:48 am

RAD have forbidding a Smacker player, but does that cover a smk to dxa converter?

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md5
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Post by md5 » Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:55 am

marticus wrote:RAD have forbidding a Smacker player, but does that cover a smk to dxa converter?
To convert smk files to dxa, an external tool from RAD themselves is used, which converts the smks to pictures. The pictures are then combined into dxa files

madmoose
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Post by madmoose » Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:32 am

Coding a Smacker player is not the problem, I wrote one specifically for ScummVM many months ago, based on the publicly available description here: http://wiki.multimedia.cx/index.php?title=Smacker

So we have the code, but not the permission.

(It might have bitrotted though, I haven't looked at it in months.)

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marticus
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Post by marticus » Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:25 am

md5 wrote:
marticus wrote:RAD have forbidding a Smacker player, but does that cover a smk to dxa converter?
To convert smk files to dxa, an external tool from RAD themselves is used, which converts the smks to pictures. The pictures are then combined into dxa files
Fine for windows users (albeit annoying having to install yet another program), but not others, afaik.

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md5
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Post by md5 » Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:40 am

marticus wrote:Fine for windows users (albeit annoying having to install yet another program), but not others, afaik.
For now, the main problem lies with the Feeble Files, as the cutscenes for Broken Sword have already been reencoded and are available for download from our website (with permission from Revolution Software)

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