Thoughts on the App Store

Subforum for discussion and help with ScummVM's iPhone port

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sb742
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Post by sb742 » Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:02 pm

fingolfin wrote:We will not release a version that does not save/stay in background. when a call is incoming / you press home. PERIOD.

Why? Because while you might not be bugged by it, many people will be. Bad experiences like that stick in people's head like tar, you never get it out again, and we'll be labeled as "that frustrating software which always looses state when I get a call". I really don't want our name to be tarnished like that.
I know this forum is called the iPhone forum....

What about us iPod Touch users?

The iPod is identical to the iPhone but we simply don't receive incoming calls. Is it that difficult to make a second version for us with different Home button functionality?

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Vinterstum
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Post by Vinterstum » Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:46 pm

sb742 wrote:
fingolfin wrote:We will not release a version that does not save/stay in background. when a call is incoming / you press home. PERIOD.

Why? Because while you might not be bugged by it, many people will be. Bad experiences like that stick in people's head like tar, you never get it out again, and we'll be labeled as "that frustrating software which always looses state when I get a call". I really don't want our name to be tarnished like that.
I know this forum is called the iPhone forum....

What about us iPod Touch users?

The iPod is identical to the iPhone but we simply don't receive incoming calls. Is it that difficult to make a second version for us with different Home button functionality?
If the problem was just about not running in the background, possibly. But there's plenty of other issues with the official SDK that's been mentioned already, that prevents a version for it.


Anyway: Jailbreaking the iPhone or the iPod Touch is very easy, and the ScummVM version you can then install runs quite nicely in the background on both devices :).

Snaro
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Home button

Post by Snaro » Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:16 pm

Just my 2 cents:
what about the applicationWillTerminate delegate notification? Hitting the home button on the phone will send a message to your app, requiring it to terminate. Apple states (either in the SDK keynote or in one of the Getting Started videos) that you have about 15 seconds before your app will be terminated forcefully, but in the meantime, the app will run in the background. Are 15 seconds enough to save the RAM stack?
And yes, having to install the games via some tiny server app on your desktop may suck, but it is still better than not playing them at all (provided you don't want to jailbreak your phone). Take a look at Stanza, it works pretty well.

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Vinterstum
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Post by Vinterstum » Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:47 pm

We can't save the state of the RAM; that's something you can only do with emulator software. ScummVM runs all native code, the only thing we can do is forcibly save a game when the terminate event happens. The problem here is that some/most engines aren't set up to be able to make a savegame at any given time.

And again, there's the legal issues. With the NDA still in place, -no- open source software is possible (you can't share the code). Even when it's lifted, there's compatibility issues with the GPL/LGPL and Apple's EULA. And the EULA also prohibits programs that download interpreted code, which is exactly what ScummVM would have to do (it would quite likely apply to all of our games that use scripts, even if that isn't Apple's actual intention).

At the current time, there's just too many issues preventing an AppStore version of ScummVM.

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PlayingKarrde
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Post by PlayingKarrde » Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:27 pm

To be honest if there were two versions and they were identical I would still get the jailbreak version. It seems to me that the appstore is really clunky and updates appear to take forever. They are more interested in showing you what is "featured" or the top 25 than what is actually new or interesting.

To be honest time is probably better spent on the version we've all been using all this time than worrying about getting on the appstore. Like you said, it's so easy to jailbreak (and really pretty much risk free) that anyone who really wants to play ScummVM has very little reason not to do it.

Besides, the majority of the apps on my phone are actually from cydia rather than the appstore anyway.

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TomFrost
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Post by TomFrost » Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:21 pm

Robo-X wrote:I hope you are right. The only thing that would change that is that the AppStore apps seems to be so easy to crack. As it's a big revenue source for Apple I am sure they will do all they can to plug the hole. And possibly make it even harder to jailbreak. But I am speculating.

//Rob
I have a bit of involvement with this side of the community, and can safely say that the methods of "plugging the hole" that have been discussed so far will definitely not affect ScummVM in its current state.

Trilby The Man With The P
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Post by Trilby The Man With The P » Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:42 pm

http://www.veiosoft.com/ - DataCase
Maybe something like this program would work? Still not sure, if it's possible to get access to the files uploaded by this program from an other one...
It comes out on July 28th, and will cost $7 so let's wait...
I toatally agree with that, i won't pretend to know anything about the sdk but couldn't you use this app and just tell scumm to read the game files from there?

i wouldn't want to jailbreak my iphone, i know there's "virtually no risk" but that's what they told me when i flashed my xbox and now i have a very expensive and pretty-looking brick in my room, so if there's a way get scumm onto the app store without jailbreak i definately want to go for that.

Even if you couldn't tell scumm to read the files transfered by that datacase app, couldn't you just look at the code for it and try to replicate that in a mini version as part of the scumm app?



P.S. my username is supposed to say the man with the plan, but apparently that was too long so it left just the P :evil:

fingolfin
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Post by fingolfin » Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:23 pm

Trilby The Man With The P wrote:
http://www.veiosoft.com/ - DataCase
Maybe something like this program would work? Still not sure, if it's possible to get access to the files uploaded by this program from an other one...
It comes out on July 28th, and will cost $7 so let's wait...
I toatally agree with that, i won't pretend to know anything about the sdk but couldn't you use this app and just tell scumm to read the game files from there?
[...]
Even if you couldn't tell scumm to read the files transfered by that datacase app, couldn't you just look at the code for it and try to replicate that in a mini version as part of the scumm app?
Once again, there are no technical problems, no coding problems -- sure, we could write code to transfer data to your iPhone and what not else. That simply is not the problem. But the Apple EULA prohibits programs to download and run interpreted code, which is exactly what ScummVM would have to do. In addition, the Apple license is fundamentally incompatible with the GPL.

So, there currently is NO legal way for us to distribute ScummVM through the AppStore. If you are unhappy about this -- well, we are not exactly happy about it, either, but can't do anything about it. So, please complain to Apple, they are the only ones who *can* do something about it.

Trilby The Man With The P wrote: P.S. my username is supposed to say the man with the plan, but apparently that was too long so it left just the P :evil:
Just omit the Trilby then, and it'll fit ;)

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Vinterstum
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Post by Vinterstum » Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:29 pm


Trilby The Man With The P
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Post by Trilby The Man With The P » Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:40 pm

naa, the trilby stays! that's the whole point of the name, "the man with the plan" just sounds pretentious

clem
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Post by clem » Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:26 pm

Trilby The Man With The P wrote:naa, the trilby stays! that's the whole point of the name, "the man with the plan" just sounds pretentious
"There's no 'P' in 'Trilby'" :lol:

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rafi
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Post by rafi » Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:10 pm

Robo-X wrote:But I guess the biggest problem is with the save game state when you press the home button. Without that functionality there is 0 chance ScummVM will ever come to AppStore.

//Rob
You know, I'd be willing to forego the a save game state on a call interrupt or on a home button depress as long as a periodic autosave is in place.

Rafi

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sev
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Post by sev » Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:50 pm

rafi wrote: You know, I'd be willing to forego the a save game state on a call interrupt or on a home button depress as long as a periodic autosave is in place.
That is always good to read the documentation. README, Section 6.1 "Autosaves".


Eugene

fingolfin
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Post by fingolfin » Sun Aug 10, 2008 9:53 pm

Eugene, don't forget that most of our engines do not support autosaves...

Abyway, even if we did, I don't think it would be acceptable to let ScummVM be interupted, loosing play progress of the user. My stance on this firm.
But it doesn't matter anyway, because this is not what is blocking is from using the app store. Rather, Apple is blocking us from doing that. We can not legally distribute ScummVM via the App store, because we'd have to violate both our own license, as well as Apple's, in numerous ways.

Charlii
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Post by Charlii » Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:39 am

I just noticed that Frotz was just released in the AppStore. Since this application is similar to ScummVM in some ways, I wondered if this is in any way an indication that Apple do allow this kind of apps, regardless of their maze-like terms.

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