Quick question about Win KQ6 mouse pointers

General chat related to ScummVM, adventure gaming, and so on.

Moderator: ScummVM Team

Post Reply
User avatar
envisaged0ne
Posts: 153
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:17 am
Location: United States

Quick question about Win KQ6 mouse pointers

Post by envisaged0ne » Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:21 am

Was wondering if there were any plans to use the original mouse icons for the Win version of KQ6. As it is now, it uses the DOS icons for the mouse pointer. The win version used smaller icons and were white. Which I personally kinda preferred.

User avatar
md5
ScummVM Developer
Posts: 2261
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:31 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Post by md5 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:10 pm

Right now, we have no plans to support the Windows cursors. They were inferior, ugly and way too small, which is, IMHO, a step back. Why support something that's more plain and uglier?

Though that could change, I suppose (after all, it's a personal opinion). Please file a feature request in the tracker

User avatar
Mataku
Posts: 196
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:28 pm

Post by Mataku » Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:00 pm

md5 wrote:Why support something that's more plain and uglier?
well, then i guess you should remove all support for AGI games aswell :P

User avatar
clone2727
Retired
Posts: 1592
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 8:23 pm
Location: NJ, USA

Post by clone2727 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:40 pm

md5 wrote:Right now, we have no plans to support the Windows cursors. They were inferior, ugly and way too small, which is, IMHO, a step back. Why support something that's more plain and uglier?

Though that could change, I suppose (after all, it's a personal opinion). Please file a feature request in the tracker
It is a personal opinion. Just like the personal opinion that the undithering mode is better. :)

User avatar
md5
ScummVM Developer
Posts: 2261
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:31 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Post by md5 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:06 pm

Mataku wrote:
md5 wrote:Why support something that's more plain and uglier?
well, then i guess you should remove all support for AGI games aswell :P
As I said it's a personal opinion. For the same game, the Windows cursors look uglier and more plain than the DOS ones. Don't compare SCI with AGI, it's like comparing apples and oranges :)

Bluddy
ScummVM Developer
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:43 am

Post by Bluddy » Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:49 am

As far as I can tell, the Sierra Windows cursors were a result of the era: games were just beginning to be ported to Windows and getting the cursors to change colors would have been difficult to do if not impossible, so they did what little they could. It's funny that there's now a request for those cursors, but I guess if that's the version you grew up with, that's what you think of as the proper version.

User avatar
MusicallyInspired
Posts: 1033
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:03 am
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Contact:

Post by MusicallyInspired » Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:20 pm

clone2727 wrote:It is a personal opinion. Just like the personal opinion that the undithering mode is better. :)
QFT

I freaking hate undithering mode. It ruins many of the backgrounds.

User avatar
LordHoto
ScummVM Developer
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 3:58 pm
Location: Germany

Post by LordHoto » Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:31 pm

MusicallyInspired wrote:
clone2727 wrote:It is a personal opinion. Just like the personal opinion that the undithering mode is better. :)
QFT

I freaking hate undithering mode. It ruins many of the backgrounds.
You are hopefully aware that you can disable it then? ;-) (i.e. "sci_undither=false" in your config file, either in the scummvm section or in all the game specific sections)

User avatar
MusicallyInspired
Posts: 1033
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:03 am
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Contact:

Post by MusicallyInspired » Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:17 am

Yes, I am aware. Before I thought the only way to do it was either to input the command in the console every time you load an SCI0 game, or to compile your own build which disables it. I still don't think it should be the default setting any more than 2xsaisupereagle or whatever should be the default scaler for LucasArts games. Any aesthetic changes made to "improve" the game should be left to the decision of the user in my opinion.

Bluddy
ScummVM Developer
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:43 am

Post by Bluddy » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:39 am

Really Musically, you hate undithering mode? I think it's beautiful. This was discussed elsewhere on the forums, but in my opinion it takes the SCI0 art (which isn't that great) and raises it to a new level (near-VGA quality). I find it a great pleasure to view the old SCI0 backgrounds with it, especially for games that struggled with a lot of dithering (Camelot, SQ3, Colonel's Bequest).

User avatar
MusicallyInspired
Posts: 1033
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:03 am
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Contact:

Post by MusicallyInspired » Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:43 pm

My problem is that by omitting the necessary checkered order of pixels which hide things artistically like lines that become an element of shading by depending on the dithered look, it destroys the original intended work in the first place. With undithered mode active this effect is lost and you get all these bizarre jagged lines everywhere that make no sense and look out of place. Not to mention that I think the advantage of having 256 colours in the first place (or more than 16, anyway) is for shading and gradual changes. Undithered mode just makes a bunch of flat colours while dithered mode (while crude) actually looks like shading in a lot of ways because of its small palette and unique approach to fooling the eye. Really, undither doesn't add all that much to a picture anyway because it just makes it look flat. It actually detracts from it because it takes an artistic expression and turns it into this flat and boring image with bizarre jagged lines in random areas of the screen which were meant to be for shading and other artistic nuances.

Also, half the time there are sprites on the screen which can't be undithered and are dithered specifically for the purpose of blending in with the background. These previously invisible sprites that look like a part of the world are now glaringly obvious and throw the player right out of the game (at least it does to me).

I'm all for an undithered feature or any other options to improve (or in this case, completely alter) the look of games in ScummVM. I just believe that it should be left to the user whether to decide or not they want to enable them. Games supported by ScummVM should be presented the way they were originally intended to be experienced and not "enhanced" by default. It's great if people like it. Awesome. Just don't make it the default. Again, nothing like this is done to SCUMM games or any other engine in ScummVM's compatibility list and shouldn't be to SCI0 either. Granted it's not really possible in the same way with other engines, but I guarantee you that if you did there'd be a similar outcry from fans of those games if a feature like undither was implemented and activated by default to "enhance" the original experience. These games are played out of nostalgia. Don't muck with it unnecessarily.

That was longer than I intended but I believe represents the stance of a lot of Sierra adventure fans out there who disapprove of the feature.

Collector
Posts: 549
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 6:58 pm
Contact:

Post by Collector » Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:42 pm

MusicallyInspired wrote:I still don't think it should be the default setting any more than 2xsaisupereagle or whatever should be the default scaler for LucasArts games. Any aesthetic changes made to "improve" the game should be left to the decision of the user in my opinion.
I agree wholeheartedly. Some may dislike the dithering, but the blending does not render the same color value that dithering seems to. It is like colorizing old black and white movies. It is making aesthetic/artistic changes that were not what was originally intended. Some may like it and it is good that the option is available for them, but the default should be unadulterated.

Bluddy
ScummVM Developer
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:43 am

Post by Bluddy » Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:50 pm

Well put. I disagree with you - I love the feature myself - but I respect your opinion in the matter.

I personally think dithering works when you have a high enough resolution such as 640x400 where the eye can't make out the details, but looks rather ugly on 320x200.

I emailed the original artist on many of the Sierra games and he said they were really trying to push the envelope when using that dithering technique. The goal, as he put it, was to produce more visible colors, not stylistic technique. They couldn't imagine getting more real colors back then, but I think had they been able to, they would have used more colors rather than using dithering.

I agree that the undithering implementation isn't perfect in scummvm, but in my opinion it comes pretty close, and I think most people enjoy it. I also personally wouldn't mind having it applied to other EGA games in other engines (or even to VGA games).

Flo
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:50 pm

Post by Flo » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:17 pm

Would have, could have, should have.

IMO, ScummVM should, by default, represent games the way they did originally appear, not try to guess what they might have looked like had the circumstances been different.

User avatar
m_kiewitz
ScummVM Developer
Posts: 157
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:09 am
Location: Daventry

Post by m_kiewitz » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:45 pm

Flo wrote:IMO, ScummVM should, by default, represent games the way they did originally appear, not try to guess what they might have looked like had the circumstances been different.
For the backgrounds, we actually dont guess at all. We just use the color, that the artist really wanted to use. In fact, "undithering" is actually just no additional dithering step.

Post Reply