Lucasarts adventures on Steam!

General chat related to ScummVM, adventure gaming, and so on.

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jg
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Post by jg »

ZakMcRofl wrote:It also does not explain why ScummVM keeps working on games that are already natively working under current windows versions (like MI3). As far as I can tell over the years the motivation has expanded from "make this run again" to "make this run on as many devices as possible".
CMI is playable on XP? With no bugs?
http://www.netalive.org/topics/16122
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=71839
http://www.gameboomers.com/forum/ubbthr ... ber=137037

"Make this run on as many devices as possible" is a subgoal to "make this run for everyone."
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LordHoto
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Post by LordHoto »

ZakMcRofl wrote:It also does not explain why ScummVM keeps working on games that are already natively working under current windows versions (like MI3). As far as I can tell over the years the motivation has expanded from "make this run again" to "make this run on as many devices as possible".
Just to be sure you're informed correctly, many (if not most) of the ScummVM devs are not using Windows. Personally I don't need any Windows port of ScummVM to be honest, I'm just fine with it running on my Linux/amd64. Of course people might think different about it. Especially the devs from us using Windows ;-).

So all in all the motivation is not "make this run under windows again", but "make this run again". Since porting ScummVM to new platforms is usually not that hard (of course some porters might have a different opinion about it, and I think for some ports it is really hard, because of platform limitations), it's just natural that it looks like "make this run on as many devices as possible". The real idea is still "make this run (under my preferred platform) again."
ZakMcRofl
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Post by ZakMcRofl »

Of course I know that, I use Linux myself and used scummVM on many platforms. I simply wanted to reject the "not working anymore" argument. Like the original LucasArts releases, the steam versions were never made for Linux/Mac/... Why is it acceptable to make the original versions work on Linux/Mac but not the steam versions?

EDIT: Extracting the ATLANTIS.000 file seems easy enough. The question is how to figure out that it works for all games the same way. I don't feel like buying the entire LEC catalog again :)
fingolfin
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Post by fingolfin »

ZakMcRofl, we are not supporting any form of "milking" customers. We are simply wary and want to, bluntly put, protect our asses until we know more!

From you statement I think you are not a lawyer and also have never been involved in IP or copyright litigation. It's not fun. And just because you and me know (and also sev, as he clearly expresses in his blog post) that we are not doing anything illegal doesn't stop 3rd parties (e.g. LucasArts) from still trying to sue us or at least make our lives very hard. Thus, we are first trying to find out what LucasArts position is before doing things like adding support for those newly released game variants.

I.e. we are simply being careful, because while we love hacking on ScummVM, we also love leading peaceful lives. In particular, we don't like being told by others that *we* should take a risk just because others think there is none resp. that it's not that big... Fine, you may think so, but since *we* have to bear the risk, we'll reserve to decide for ourselves whether to take it ;).

And no, this is not just paranoia; we were contact and threatened by the LEC lawyers several times in the past years; and we just had a lengthy legal fight about GPL violation. Legal stuff is *no* fun, trust me.

That said, of course 3rd party tools could easily be written that "extract" those games for ScummVM. It is rather trivial, after all ;).

And finally, it is not unlikely that we'll add "native" support for these game variants in the future. But first we need to hear from LEC.
ZakMcRofl
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Post by ZakMcRofl »

Thanks for your response, I can understand that the legal "heat" is stronger now that the games are being officially sold again. Unfortunately I highly doubt you'll get official permission by LEC for anything even if they (unofficially) tolerate ScummVM. After all you did them a great service by preserving the interest in their games over all these years.

I'm curious on how ScummVM will react if LEC does not offer you an official statement or if they disallow you to do it. Maybe I just don't like to see ScummVM being dependent on the judgement of LEC...
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sev
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Post by sev »

ZakMcRofl wrote:I'm curious on how ScummVM will react if LEC does not offer you an official statement or if they disallow you to do it. Maybe I just don't like to see ScummVM being dependent on the judgement of LEC...
Sorry for being harsh, but so far you expressed only negative emotions towards our project in your posts. Thus it doesn't look like you are really interested in our well-being or getting sincere replies.


Eugene
el seth
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Post by el seth »

DrMcCoy wrote:
el seth wrote:Yeah, you are missing the point. What he's asking is what's the point of making the Steam version of these games compatible with ScummVM when they're already made to run on XP/Vista.
Actually, no. Even if they are compatible with XP or Vista, you still can't play them on GNU/Linux, MacOS, AmigaOS, the iPhone, .... That's the point right there.
That wasn't the point of the specific question he had, which pertained specifically to the need to port from Windows to Windows.

I don't think anyone really needs to be lectured on the desirability of multi-platform support, but thanks anyway.
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LordHoto
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Post by LordHoto »

el seth wrote:That wasn't the point of the specific question he had, which pertained specifically to the need to port from Windows to Windows.

I don't think anyone really needs to be lectured on the desirability of multi-platform support, but thanks anyway.
Just wondering did you even bother to look at his reply?
Vegan wrote: No, that is a good point. I honestly hadn't thought about that. When I think of PC gaming, I think of, well, PC gaming.

I've only ever used ScummVM to make games run that won't run on newer versions of Windows, so I just never thought of ScummVM in that way.
As you might have noticed, he only though about "Windows to Windows", because he wasn't aware that it's not the sole purpose of using ScummVM. It seems you missed the reason for why he asked the question in this way. Thus our comments showing that ScummVM is not soley for that weren't missing the point.
el seth
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Post by el seth »

I see that now, apologies.
ZakMcRofl
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Post by ZakMcRofl »

sev wrote:
ZakMcRofl wrote:I'm curious on how ScummVM will react if LEC does not offer you an official statement or if they disallow you to do it. Maybe I just don't like to see ScummVM being dependent on the judgement of LEC...
Sorry for being harsh, but so far you expressed only negative emotions towards our project in your posts. Thus it doesn't look like you are really interested in our well-being or getting sincere replies.


Eugene
While I agree that some of my posts were critical towards your statement that does not contradict me highly appreciating scummVM. Usually people only get worked up about stuff they deeply care about. If scummVM was only some shitty program I don't give a eff about I would never have taken the time to post here. Besides my nick should tell you that I'm a big fan of LucasArts games and in extension scummVM.

I tried to convey this in my earlier posts by remarks like "I respect you for all the work you put into this [...]", "Of course I don't want the scummVM team to get into problems.", "Of course I know that, I use Linux myself and used scummVM on many platforms." and "After all you did them a great service by preserving the interest in their games over all these years.".

My posts were made with the best intension for the scummVM community and I still believe that expecting LEC to give its go-ahead may be problematic.

My final question is this: should I put any more work into a third party extraction tool or are you somewhat certain that scummVM will support the steam format some time down the road?
Last edited by ZakMcRofl on Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Longcat
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Post by Longcat »

zakmcwhateveritwas:

Forum rule #4

4) Be nice to each other and respect the moderator. Profanity and insults will not be tolerated. If you have a problem with another member turn to the respective moderator.
fingolfin
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Post by fingolfin »

OK folks, relax, this is getting way out of proportion. Relax, we are not enemies (I think) 8)

@ZakMcRofl: You may have had the best intention, but I, too, felt your initial couple posts quite insulting, as they seemed to imply some sinister motives from our side. Anyway, I think this has been clarified, so let's not waste time discussing this further :).

As for whether we will add support for this or not: Obviously we cannot make a definitive statement on this, for the same legal reasons I quoted above. All I can say is that writing such an extraction tool is an easy exercise. If you cannot stand "loosing" the effort you put into it should we ever add native support for the new releases, well, then don't code it... But maybe you can afford that risk, after all? For once, its your risk and hence it is really your decision this time :lol:
ZakMcRofl
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Post by ZakMcRofl »

The tool itself is somewhat easy to code but verifying it works correctly for all games may not be that easy since I don't plan on buying them all again.
marzipan
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Post by marzipan »

Does anyone know if the Steam version of The Dig uses the same vintage Windows interpreter as the original (and the 2002 compilation) or does it also use a newly built executable?


Shame they couldn't include FM-Towns Loom in the mix. PC-CD Loom just seems rather, well, hollow to me. Probably because literally all the audio is mixed in together and cranked out at setpoints amongst what is otherwise deathly silence. Having a background soundtrack would've worked pretty well.
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clone2727
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Post by clone2727 »

marzipan wrote:Does anyone know if the Steam version of The Dig uses the same vintage Windows interpreter as the original (and the 2002 compilation) or does it also use a newly built executable?


Shame they couldn't include FM-Towns Loom in the mix. PC-CD Loom just seems rather, well, hollow to me. Probably because literally all the audio is mixed in together and cranked out at setpoints amongst what is otherwise deathly silence. Having a background soundtrack would've worked pretty well.
All the interpreters are newly built with the index file in the executable.
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