just got a thread closed cause they say ScummVm is piracy?!?

General chat related to ScummVM, adventure gaming, and so on.

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Kisdra
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Post by Kisdra » Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:34 pm

fingolfin wrote:This is not quite correct: LucasArts *did* send us a C&D, but *not* because of our reverse engineering efforts. Rather, they alleged that we were distributing copies of their games. Which we of course didn't.

They withdrew the C&D subsequently.
This is all the difference with a classic emulator : ScummVM still requires the original game files to work, not roms, which the team does not provides of course. That makes it, somewhere, more legal.

And, for some games like Discworld, you even have the approval of the creators.

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md5
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Post by md5 » Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:58 pm

Kisdra wrote:
fingolfin wrote:This is not quite correct: LucasArts *did* send us a C&D, but *not* because of our reverse engineering efforts. Rather, they alleged that we were distributing copies of their games. Which we of course didn't.

They withdrew the C&D subsequently.
This is all the difference with a classic emulator : ScummVM still requires the original game files to work, not roms, which the team does not provides of course. That makes it, somewhere, more legal.

And, for some games like Discworld, you even have the approval of the creators.
... and don't forget Revolution Software either :) (Broken Sword 1 and 2, Beneath a Steel Sky, Lure of the Temptress), and Interactive Binary Illusions (Flight of the Amazon Queen)

Tim20
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Post by Tim20 » Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:53 pm

Sorry for being a noob but what do you all mean by C&D? And in layman's terms, how do you go about reverse engineering and what exactly does that do?

hippy dave
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Post by hippy dave » Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:55 pm

c&d is a "cease and desist" letter, when they write to you with a bunch of legalese, saying that if you don't stop doing whatever it is they claim you're doing wrong, then they will take legal action against you.

Ceri Cat
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Post by Ceri Cat » Thu Jul 03, 2008 3:03 am

Ok reverse engineering is what occurs when you get something that you have no idea exactly how it works so you pull it apart slowly and analyze each part and look at how it interrelates with the other parts of the whole. In itself RE does nothing, you just analyze the product to determine how it works. You can use it though to produce something similar (we use this a lot in the military when enemy vehicles are captured historically). With SCUMM VM it means they took the code apart and gradually built up a replacement to the original engine with the knowledge they garnered about the functions of the original engine. It's slow, complicated, and painful though.

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sev
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Post by sev » Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:36 am

md5 wrote: ... and don't forget Revolution Software either :) (Broken Sword 1 and 2, Beneath a Steel Sky, Lure of the Temptress), and Interactive Binary Illusions (Flight of the Amazon Queen)
Let me continue this list: AdventureSoft who provided us with support and sources for all supported games from Elvira to Simon to Feeble; Wyrmkeep who gave us support with Inherit the Earth; Arachnosoft who provided us with Drascula sources and assets; Pendulo Studios who are all supportive for our Igor efforts etc. Overall about 70% of our currently supported engines exist with blessing of respective right holders and/or engine authors.


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Post by Collector » Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:54 am

sev wrote:Overall about 70% of our currently supported engines exist with blessing of respective right holders and/or engine authors.
You can easily why many developers would want to do this. It is a way to let their creations live again with no cost to themselves, real or merely potential.

Ceri Cat
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Post by Ceri Cat » Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:07 am

It's also good advertising for them in some cases because it shows they recognise they have fans of the titles still. And if they choose to rerelease the title they can feel safe in the fact that they'll not only have sales the games are still playable without a lot of redesign work

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Post by Kirben » Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:41 am

sev wrote:AdventureSoft who provided us with support and sources for all supported games from Elvira to Simon to Feeble;
Actually in the case of the AGOS engine, we didn't get the source code of all games from Adventure Soft. In particular Elvira 2 and Waxworks, whose source code seems to have been lost.

Tim20
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Post by Tim20 » Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:24 pm

hippy dave wrote:c&d is a "cease and desist" letter, when they write to you with a bunch of legalese, saying that if you don't stop doing whatever it is they claim you're doing wrong, then they will take legal action against you.
Ceri Cat wrote:Ok reverse engineering is what occurs when you get something that you have no idea exactly how it works so you pull it apart slowly and analyze each part and look at how it interrelates with the other parts of the whole. In itself RE does nothing, you just analyze the product to determine how it works. You can use it though to produce something similar (we use this a lot in the military when enemy vehicles are captured historically). With SCUMM VM it means they took the code apart and gradually built up a replacement to the original engine with the knowledge they garnered about the functions of the original engine. It's slow, complicated, and painful though.
Okay, thanks for clearing that up guys. That makes a bit more sense. :wink: So, LucasArts were actually okay with the ScummVM team reverse engineering their games, so it was all perfectly legal in their eyes then? What about the program itself and its title? I'd've thought LucasArts would have had a pissy fit over the team using the title 'Scumm' or something.

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sanguinehearts
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Post by sanguinehearts » Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:32 pm

I believe Lucasarts referred to the Scumm engine as SPUTM, and since its Scumm(VM) I assume there is no legal recourse since ScummVM is not trademarked by lucas, however im uncertain on that since Lucasarts thought they could sue digg, that was a very long shot, ScummVM/Scumm is closer..
we pray :)

Arantor
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Post by Arantor » Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:44 pm

Well, SCUMM itself is an acronym and I don't remember reading anywhere that SCUMM was a trademark of LucasArts (surely if it was, it would for example state "The SCUMM(tm) Bar" in the game)

As for the legal action against Digg, that was because "The Dig" (tm) is a trademark of LucasArts, as are most of their game titles registered trademarks (reduces people cashing in on the name). Quite why LA thought action against Digg was valid is unknown, since it's hardly related to adventuring, space travel, alien worlds, asteroids or anything that actually comes up in the game...

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Kaminari
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Post by Kaminari » Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:05 pm

Kisdra wrote:This is all the difference with a classic emulator: ScummVM still requires the original game files to work, not roms.
Huh?

You can run your original disks and discs in DOSBox, you can launch your original CDs in Magic Engine, Kega, Anex86, FreeDO and countless other emulators. You can even load your original Spectrum tapes in Spectaculator, providing you got the right hardware. Not all systems were cartridge-based ("ROMs" as you call them). And MAME is not the only emulator out there :)

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LogicDeLuxe
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Post by LogicDeLuxe » Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:37 pm

Not to mention that ScummVM supports ROMs anyway, ie. you can play ManiacNES, emulated MT-32 music, and FM-Towns versions with the Japanese font. All of those require one or more ROM files.

Ceri Cat
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Post by Ceri Cat » Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:22 am

I'd hesitate to call SCUMM VM an emulator as its nature is not emulation but rather replacement of the original engine to allow the software to work in new environments.

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