Are there any Sierra games without dead ends?

General chat related to ScummVM, adventure gaming, and so on.

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doomer
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Post by doomer »

First of all, three people are not all people and if you scroll back to page one you'd see a few more people that tend to dislike dead-ends. If you have been focused on me only, now is a good time to go back to page one, or even consult the subject of the topic as a reference.

Dead-ends in King's Quest VI are many. Here are some. You can pick up the wrong lamp. You can go in the dungeon unprepared. There is a dead-end if you take an alternative path in the castle. There is a dead-end if you do not have the gauntlet. There is a dead-end if you do not have the coins. There is a dead-end if you forget the river-styx for the paint. Does it make it five or a bit more?

nathanel.mori
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Post by nathanel.mori »

doomer wrote:Well in the end, it all comes down to taste. Some people wouldn't even consider playing adventures or watching movies, outdated or not.

Yet that dreaded dead-end reputation speaks for itself, I know that for a fact as I've seen many people experience it, and it is certainly a major let-down for the would-be adventure fan. Unfortunately, a problematic Sierra game should never be your first adventure game, and by no means a game to play without some preparation, as even adventure gamers who'd love to play a Sierra game would first ask for some dead-end advice. I believe that all makes it look too complicated to an outsider, for example, and they'd think twice before jumping on the Sierra wagon. I admit Kq6 can be great fun if and only if it is played while following a walkthrough at least the first time, but for me that completely defeats the purpose of a game. As you said you no longer "work hard", though I also disagree with working hard in a game, there isn't such a concept. I'd rather say you no longer play it. Working is working while playing is something else. There's a reason games have their name.
Basketball is also a game, but you work hard in order to be a good player, so I really can't accept your argument. Otherwise, I agree with almost everything else you said in that latest post.

As for KQ6, it's really not that bad. There's also a small dead-end in Gabriel Knight 1, and if you played it you'd have seen that it's completely not even worth mentioning. As for KQ6, all the dead-ends were listed here about 15 posts ago, so you should have no problem playing it without fear.

I completely agree that Sierra games shouldn't be anyone's first adventure game (just as "Birth of a Nation" shouldn't be anyone's first movie). Today is the generation of casual gamers and it simply isn't right for anyone to start with games that are much more intellectually demanding (not because people are less smart, but because they are less patient for thrills). Back in the 80's, though, it was a different story. Also, a game like GK3 has no dead ends at all, and it still shouldn't be anyone's first game because it is so hard (much harder than any dead-end I ever encountered). Nonetheless, it'd be a shame for someone who liked TLJ to miss classics such as GK1 and KQ6.

I also agree with what you said much earlier about Lucasarts adventures having much superior graphics to their contemporary Sierra games. But Sierra is really 2nd place in that category... (I'm a much bigger Lucasarts fan, by the way; Jane Jensen is the only truly talented writer in Sierra in my opinion; all the rest are just good game designers, but I wouldn't let any one of them write a novel or dialogue for a movie - Lucasarts, on the other hand.... they're all a bunch of mega artists. Fate of Atlantis was embarrassingly better than Indy 4 - Kingdom of the Crystal Skull)

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envisaged0ne
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Post by envisaged0ne »

Not having the right items can get you stuck in a spot where you have to back up a bit to go get them. Most adventure games are like that. Of course. A dead end is where you have to go all the way back to the beginning. Or VERY far back and practically replay it from scratch.

So, anywhere you have to backup a little to get an object to proceed further is unacceptable to you? You'd rather not have to think and work out the problems? Why not just avoid adventure games all together and stick with 1st person shooters or other games that don't require a lot of thinking and reasoning to get through a problem.

And I have read through ALL the posts. Most posts were people pointing out games without dead ends for the original poster. It didn't make them agree they liked them better

nathanel.mori
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Post by nathanel.mori »

doomer wrote:First of all, three people are not all people and if you scroll back to page one you'd see a few more people that tend to dislike dead-ends.
So what? I also tend to dislike dead ends, but I still enjoy many dead-end games in general, just like I can enjoy games with killer pixel-hunting.
doomer wrote: Dead-ends in King's Quest VI are many. Here are some. You can pick up the wrong lamp. You can go in the dungeon unprepared. There is a dead-end if you take an alternative path in the castle. There is a dead-end if you do not have the gauntlet. There is a dead-end if you do not have the coins. There is a dead-end if you forget the river-styx for the paint. Does it make it five or a bit more?
You're cheating here a little bit. You're hiding the fact that most of those dead-ends are really easy to avoid, and that you are even warned not to skip them. All in all, KQ6 "offers" no more than a couple of true dead-ends.

doomer
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Post by doomer »

Yep basketball is a game, but you can eventually earn respect, and probably a bit more if you become really good at it. Working hard in an adventure game with dead-ends won't earn you respect, it is much more likely that it will make you laughing-stock if you tell somebody you played a computer game for several weeks because of a dead-end that you didn't know was there in the first place. It is just one of the many reasons why I prefer to stay away from the concept of "working hard" in games, and rather just play them.

Also saying that there are only casual players nowadays who do not seek an intellectual challenge to put it mildly is the same as saying that we do not see intellectual games or movies today. It is simply not true. There have been casual type games in the past albeit not called casual.
You're cheating here a little bit. You're hiding the fact that most of those dead-ends are really easy to avoid, and that you are even warned not to skip them. All in all, KQ6 "offers" no more than a couple of true dead-ends.
Sorry but easy to avoid also qualifies as a dead-end in my book. And as long as there is a chance to miss it, it's a dead-end.

nathanel.mori
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Post by nathanel.mori »

doomer wrote:Yep basketball is a game, but you can eventually earn respect, and probably a bit more if you become really good at it. Working hard in an adventure game with dead-ends won't earn you respect, it is much more likely that it will make you a laughing-stock if you tell somebody you played a computer game for several weeks because of a dead-end that you didn't know was there in the first place. It is just one of the many reasons that prefer to stay away from the concept of "working hard" in games, and rather just play them.
Oh lord, that was so funny. Thanks for giving me the healthiest laugh of the week. I really don't know if you were serious or just joking, but I swear to God - if you complete a single dead-end adventure game - you'll earn my respect. It might not be worth much, but it's really all I can chip in from where I stand. If you post a video of yourself completing it on youtube, I'll send you a bouquet of flowers to your house. I mean it (but you'll have to give me a link to a Yugoslavian flower shop, since I don't know any).
doomer wrote:Also saying that there are only casual players nowadays who do not seek an intellectual challenge to put it mildly...
Never said it. Just said that casual gaming characterizes this generation. Don't overblow my statements.

doomer
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Post by doomer »

Wow. Talking about insulting and let me remember how you put it..."sting in my sharp tongue" well you definitely need to get rid of that... I see a dead-end is all that exists in your life and I don't know how you came up with that flower but your statements are way past being overblown now. But seems you just can't get over being in a dead-end.

Just I wonder why a few pages earlier you were scared by dead-ends? I guess you couldn't bear to be intellectually challenged and instead came here looking for help. Why didn't you challenge yourself intellectually? I know why, you wanted to play some basketball instead but settled for a dead-end game. Well, that settles it. Oh and am still laughing about that flower, must be a language gap thing once again. While I might not post a video completing a dead-end video game I am eagerly in anticipation, no, really looking forward to see your videos on youtube of playing dead-end games. After all, a dead-end is all that matters to you. Oh well, just make sure to keep me posted.
Last edited by doomer on Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nathanel.mori
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Post by nathanel.mori »

doomer wrote:Wow. Talking about insulting... well... I see a dead-end is all that exists in your life and I don't know how you came up with that flower but your statements are way past being overblown now. But seems you just can't get over being in a dead-end.

Just I wonder why a few pages earlier you were scared by dead-ends? I guess you couldn't bear to be intellectually challenged and instead came here looking for help. Why didn't you challenge yourself intellectually? I know why, you wanted to play some basketball instead but settled for a dead-end game. Well, that settles it. Oh and am still laughing about that flower, must be a language gap thing once again. While I might not post a video completing a dead-end video game I am eagerly in anticipation, no really looking forward to see your videos on youtube of playing dead-end games. After all, a dead-end is all that matters to you. Oh well, just make sure to keep me posted.
Nighty night, dude. Guess you're out of arguments this time around. If adventure gaming doesn't earn you respect, I sure hope something in this life will.

doomer
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Post by doomer »

Nighty night to you too, dude. Guess you are good and gone. Work in life, not in games. You might achieve something one day. Hopefully a tiny bit of respect too. You might also try to learn what a discussion means, and maybe what an argument is. Have you ever wondered why skipping school is a bad idea, but didn't know the exact reason? Now you know why. Well, I'll just pretend I haven't ever read your posts, because they sure made me nauseous.
Last edited by doomer on Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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envisaged0ne
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Post by envisaged0ne »

At least he can respect himself by taking on the challenge of games with "dead ends". Even though KQ6, as prviously stated, hardly realistically qualifies.

Keep to your simple games. Don't want these things to be to mentally challenging for you.

doomer
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Post by doomer »

Sure, taking on the challenge by consulting a walkthrough that removes the "challenge." My, I love how people pretend to challenge themselves, and say they don't play "simple games." I'll keep that in mind next time you ask about a dead-end.

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envisaged0ne
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Post by envisaged0ne »

I played every sierra game when I was a kid. 1st one was KQ2. Back then you had to call a phone number, pay money, or order a hint book and wait a week to get it. So I didn't bother with them. I actually beat all the games without using the phone number or hint books. And I would have felt like I was cheating if I had.

It wasn't so much the challenge of the game that frustrated me, more than making sure I worded things the way the game wanted me to. Maybe you use hint books anytime a challenge comes up in a game. But I felt proud that I was clever enough to beat the games without any help. And I started playing them when I was 10 years old.

doomer
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Post by doomer »

Just keep feeling proud because you were "clever enough" to get past the dead-ends and it will all work out okay. You must be really "clever" since you have managed to do all that on your own. Such an achievement.

fingolfin
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Post by fingolfin »

OK folks, I am locking this topic for the time being, to give you all some time to cool down. Hopefully you'll manage to figure how to treat each other with respect again, instead of taking all these cheap potshots.

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