ClrMame .Dat is necessary

General chat related to ScummVM, adventure gaming, and so on.

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KevinPP
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ClrMame .Dat is necessary

Post by KevinPP »

I was researching your forums and the last time I could find this was mentioned was in 2005 or maybe I'm just no good at this.

Either way, ScummVM has become huge to say the least and with more added on every time I look.

I have all my original Amiga disk and lots of IBM compatible that I get at the Goodwill which most no longer work outside of Win98 so of course ScummVM comes to mind.

Look, I see the arguments on both sides but ClrMame is not a pirating tool but it does help maintain large quantities of data. You can basically scan and make a .DAT file of any sets of data out there and all I think the community wants is a definitive .DAT file to check against the thousands of pieces of data support files for ScummVM.

I went to the Wiki area and like the AGI games it says to copy *VOL.* (e.g. GRVOL.0, KQ4VOL.11, VOL.1)

OK, what if I accidently deleted any of those files?
The game isn't going to work and your not listing everything to include file sizes or crc.

An also good example is what if I have a virus attacked to one of these files and the CRC or file size doesn't match?

Honestly, I suspect that you yourselves as developers have a honed down, precise set of files...Nothing more and Nothing less then it wouldn't take more than 10 minutes to create a database .DAT.

The last person who was yakking that it's all about Rom hunting and piracy quite frankly doesn't know what he's talking about and to suggest to just copy everything off the disk is just proof of that.

Look inside an Amiga disk and there are loaders, text files, startup sequence and executables that are completely unnecessary and add up in HD space when you get into the amounts of data 1.2.1 has and beyond.

If you disagree then atleast list every single file that is needed with nothing less/more and I will build my own .DAT.

Be fair and honesty.....No one likes piracy and given the nature of ScummVM and your run in with Lucas films a ways back we understand but.... The programs are mostly 20 years or older, won't run on modern machines and kids games. Pirates who would be interested in wasting 120 Gigs of space are most likely after modern stuff like Nintendo DS or Xbox crap not old point and click adventures.

Please, just make the .DAT file because keeping track of all of this is a real pain and I'm having difficulty doing so...At a bare minimum update your wiki page with exact file names, hash sizes, CRC, file sizes...something.

Thanks for reading.

fingolfin
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Post by fingolfin »

What a nonsense.... huge amounts of data are wasted? Even if you had 1000 floppies and copied them all to you HD, and even if all but one file on each of these floppies was redundant, then we are only talking about 1 GB of data maximal -- and not the 120 GB you mention.

Seriously, buy yourself an USB stick or something if you can't afford to keep all those files around and need to be selective.

KevinPP
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Post by KevinPP »

OK, If a convincing debate or whatever isn't sufficiant then why not just make a .dat just because I asked nicely?

Or, update the section on setting up ScummVM with ALL the file names that are necessary to run the individual games instead of just copy *.* files to your HD.

To be quite honest and 100% up front I already have a .dat that someone else made with 1.2.1 and it has thousands of extra and un necessary files on it.
Things I don't need and half the stuff probably came from his cracked versions of things.

Being I have only originals and would LIKE my Pajama Sam and Blues Disks games for my kids as well as some Amiga games for me I would have hoped that someone who had first hand knowlege of ScummVM would have wanted to WEED out the garbage and have a honed and acurate product but I guess predjudices are a foot.

In any case if you don't care enough to have acurate files and emulation of all this then I will have to use trial and error as well as all the data I can acurately find as to what files and make the .dat myself and give it to whomever needs it because those who create ScummVM doesn't care about the acuracy of the system.

ClrMame is a database manager that is not only used for roms but I personaly use it for the thousands of .PDF files, records for my business and pictures mainly because it creates checks to see if something is a duplicate file.

I can set up individual databases for several differant people and it can acurately copy their product without me having to verify each file.

For whatever reason it sounds like ClrMame killed someone's grandmother around here and why the hostility?
10 minutes of someone's time to create an acturate databse of what is needed to run games on ScummVM.

KevinPP
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Post by KevinPP »

BTW, not just floppies but CD's now and very large Flac files.

Also, there are a mess load of homebrew adventure games. Your argument was valid maybe a couple of years back but just recently with ALL my ORIGINAL media I purchaced and collected was over 30 gigs before I even attempted to get the data off for use with ScummVM and that's not even half.

All's anyone needed was a acurate .dat so we make sure we aren't using a corrupted or even missing file and the same exact version and file YOU used to get the program to run and we are left with no suprises.

What is up with all this pirate crap because we are not all pirates, ScummVM is not a pirates dream piece of software...We all search the warez sites for Blues Clues, everyone knows that.

Finally, not speaking for myself because I have originals being 43 with 4 kids I collect kids games, Stick to making ScummVM the greatest it can be and stop worrying about where others get their files from. If they get busted and fined then that's on them. You should also be concerned that they have accurate files so they can have the best experiance using your software instead of accusing them of piracy.

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Strangerke
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Post by Strangerke »

I must admit that in my mind, this kind of DAT file is directly related to piracy, typically with MAME collectors trying to get "the perfect set".

But that's a detail, really. Creating such a file would take ages. Really: ages. some games use several thousand of files (such as Tucker). Some others have dozens of versions, in multiple languages (such as Coktel games). For example, I have more than 20 different Gobliiins, found in ADI and Addy educational titles.

To give you my opinion as a developer: I won't invest a second in that file. I spend currently all my free time on reversing/implementing things, and I would need 10x more times if I wanted to be really efficient (ie, more than 48h a day) ;). Spending hours on that file would result in freezing my progress on every engine I'm working on directly or indirectly. And this will be the same for all the developers around, I guess.

On the other hand, if you want to create such a file... Why not! Invest some of your time, and we'll judge the efficiency of the resulting file :)

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DrMcCoy
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Re: ClrMame .Dat is necessary

Post by DrMcCoy »

KevinPP wrote:OK, what if I accidently deleted any of those files?
Then you are an idiot and should rightfully be made fun of.

Seriously, if you're prone to delete random files from your HD, you have a problem regardless whether one lonely program such as ScummVM allows you to package all files needed for a game together.
Hell, what if you accidentally delete that archive file?
KevinPP wrote:An also good example is what if I have a virus attacked to one of these files and the CRC or file size doesn't match?
Same thing: If you have a virus running around in your system, you have a more serious problem there.
KevinPP wrote:Honestly, I suspect that you yourselves as developers have a honed down, precise set of files...
[...]
The last person who was yakking [...] doesn't know what he's talking about
[...]
At a bare minimum update your wiki page with exact file names, hash sizes, CRC, file sizes...something
The thing is, for most of the games ScummVM supports, there is not one definite set of files. There's normally a myriad of different versions: different platforms, different languages, releases with slight fixes, etc..
For Coktel Vision games alone, collecting them all would be something I could dedicate my life to.

ScummVM's game detector code is thankfully rather flexible, able to recognize the game from just the checksum of a handful of files for each game; or, as a fallback, from the filenames alone.
KevinPP wrote:Look inside an Amiga disk and there are loaders, text files, startup sequence and executables that are completely unnecessary and add up in HD space when you get into the amounts of data 1.2.1 has and beyond.
Oh noez, we have a waste of a whole 200kb per game if we err on the side of copying too much rather than too little!

Anyway, if you had thought a bit, you probably could have deduced that normally ScummVM does not need the original executables (or Amiga startup sequences). Cases where they are needed would be marked as such in the data files wiki page.

If you don't care, just copy everything. If you do care, the data files wiki page should give you a good enough description on what do copy, without taking you an hour to locate the correct game, platform, language, release data and such in a huge list.

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Post by fingolfin »

KevinPP wrote:In any case if you don't care enough to have acurate files and emulation of all this then I will have to use trial and error as well as all the data I can acurately find as to what files and make the .dat myself and give it to whomever needs it because those who create ScummVM doesn't care about the acuracy of the system.
Of course, that's just fine, suite yourself :)

KevinPP wrote:10 minutes of someone's time to create an acturate databse of what is needed to run games on ScummVM.
If it needs only 10 minutes, why aren't you just doing it, instead of wasting time writing lengthy posts? :)

OK, now you will reply that you can't do it, but that we could do it in only 10 minutes. That's utterly ridiculous. For starters, to do it, I would have to find this clrmame tool, install it (it seems to require Windows, so i guess I first need to buy a windows computer, but, gee, that probably only takes 1 minute, right?), or maybe install wine. Then I need to learn how to use this tool, and in particular, how to create data sets for it. Then I need to wade through tens of thousands of files, to create these data sets. Then I need to upload them somewhere, and then I need to point people to the stuff I updated.

10 minutes, yup, sounds about right... not...

Not to mention that I then have created a bunch of files that I don't need. Hm, why again would I want to do that???

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Post by fingolfin »

KevinPP wrote:For whatever reason it sounds like ClrMame killed someone's grandmother around here and why the hostility?
Actually, I have no problem with ClrMame, if you want to use it, by all means, do so. Just don't expect me to spend tons of efforts so that you can use it, when I see no need for it.

But the hostility you perceive mostly stems from the fact that you very nonchalantly walk in here, and tell us what we have to do, have to think, and right away please. That we should change *our* policies, because *you* think they don't make sense. Mix in the typical arrogance of the Windows user who just blindly assumes that everybody else surely also is a Windows user. And that everybody should use ClrMame, our savior...

So your "request" came across (at least to me) as extremely presumptuous and rude.

KevinPP
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Post by KevinPP »

WOW, I didn't think you would change "OUR" policies especially when I found One thread with like 3 posts concerning ClrMame. It was a simple request that was attacked.

OK...Yes I understand the Amiga structure and that you use only data files. I used to develope on the Amiga and have owned at least 1 of every Amiga version that was made.

2, Where in your posts did you say you have a an Apple. I'm not an idiot requesting you get a windows machine that's just your sarcasm that is being rude not me.

3, the other explination from "Strangerke" that it is easier just to copy thousands of files instead of just honing it down to what is necessary is an excellent one and I'll respect that as well as understand. You could have just said this instead of the sarcasm, attacking and implying piracy.

4, no problem...I'll make my own .dat but the downside is that I don't have all the sets nor want them so my .dat would not be complete or acurate then what you guys can produce.

The problem here is that there are games you have to actually install for you to get the files, flac, mp3 conversions ect....
There is no way anyone is going to believe that each and every one of you individually install and extract files for your own systems to develope and get working and everyone highly doubts you buy a disk for each individual developer so it is resonable to assume that you share data files so that unto itself is the very piracy you yak about.

Go to any legit developer company and I guarantee that every piece of software has am original licence for their windows and compilers. Apples and Oranges you say.
To get my point accross I am not talking about your platforms or developer tools. I am trying to point out that no one believes that you yourselves that you own every single game your trying to emulate so it's not in your benefit to accuse others as pirates and rom hunters.

Alls I wanted was an acurate listing of the individual files to run the game and I get a mouth full of crap.
If you even put it in print which files but even the Datafiles - ScummVM Wiki isn't up to date and just says copy *.lllll to the hard drive.

I'll just take it as you just don't want to do it and call it a day. As the original post from 2005 I think the guy said I shouldn't have even asked.

I get the same crap from ANY developer of free programs which boils down to it's free so accept what you get and like it. My issue is no matter where you go in this world people are the same and I thought everyone in the US were a-holes. That's cool, I formed my opinion about Deutchland after spending 13 years there in the military, the only good thing about my experiance was the Frankfurt red light district except that there the German prostitutes would rip you off every single time, unless you were black, and the only ones you could trust were the Thai and Dominicans...everyone is the same.

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LordHoto
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Post by LordHoto »

KevinPP wrote:OK...Yes I understand the Amiga structure and that you use only data files. I used to develope on the Amiga and have owned at least 1 of every Amiga version that was made.
Great... So what exactly do you want to tell us with that? I think our datafiles does not list the executable files etc. of Amiga games. So this is exactly what you wanted to have, right?
KevinPP wrote:2, Where in your posts did you say you have a an Apple. I'm not an idiot requesting you get a windows machine that's just your sarcasm that is being rude not me.
In fact I am not suprised you get so many sarcastic comments, seeing how you behave. But I think that's been said already.
KevinPP wrote:3, the other explination from "Strangerke" that it is easier just to copy thousands of files instead of just honing it down to what is necessary is an excellent one and I'll respect that as well as understand. You could have just said this instead of the sarcasm, attacking and implying piracy.
I am still not sure what your problem is. Our datafiles page lists all the files which are required for the individual games. In case it knows about some files (in subdirectories) not being needed, there's an "except" list usually. So it is the list of required datafiles you ask for, right?
KevinPP wrote:4, no problem...I'll make my own .dat but the downside is that I don't have all the sets nor want them so my .dat would not be complete or acurate then what you guys can produce.
I am not sure why you think we have all the game versions out there. There is a lot of detection entries for game versions we didn't have but were submitted by users. We couldn't make a proper filesize, md5sum etc. for those game versions either.
KevinPP wrote:The problem here is that there are games you have to actually install for you to get the files, flac, mp3 conversions ect....
And what exactly is the problem here that we wouldn't have?

In fact I think only a few games we support need to be installed.
KevinPP wrote:There is no way anyone is going to believe that each and every one of you individually install and extract files for your own systems to develope and get working and everyone highly doubts you buy a disk for each individual developer so it is resonable to assume that you share data files so that unto itself is the very piracy you yak about.
I am suprised you claim that we somewhere state we own all the games we support. In fact we do not even need that, since some game versions just work as is without any special support.

Since not every developers owns every game we support, and some versions we support are owned by nobody in the team since the just work as is, I don't think your point is anyhow valid here.
KevinPP wrote:Go to any legit developer company and I guarantee that every piece of software has am original licence for their windows and compilers. Apples and Oranges you say.
To get my point accross I am not talking about your platforms or developer tools. I am trying to point out that no one believes that you yourselves that you own every single game your trying to emulate so it's not in your benefit to accuse others as pirates and rom hunters.
Again we never claimed we own all versions we support and actually it is not required most of the time (as stated above). For example in the case of SCI games translations usually work without any extra support, so we just add detection entries we get from users in bug reports and thus it's fine. No need to own the games on our side.
KevinPP wrote:Alls I wanted was an acurate listing of the individual files to run the game and I get a mouth full of crap.
If you even put it in print which files but even the Datafiles - ScummVM Wiki isn't up to date and just says copy *.lllll to the hard drive.
Why isn't that up to date? Why do you think some files matching those expressions are not needed? Maybe some files are not required. but nobody noticed so far... then it's a minor thing which could be changed. In general all files listed there should be required though.
KevinPP wrote:I get the same crap from ANY developer of free programs which boils down to it's free so accept what you get and like it.
You should really consider the way you came here and did baseless claims like:
KevinPP wrote:OK, If a convincing debate or whatever isn't sufficiant then why not just make a .dat just because I asked nicely?
I didn't see any convincing debate about this at all. In fact you say with it that we are stupid and don't listen to proper reasons.

Or you claim above were you think we say we own all the versions we support. Maybe you don't know how ScummVM works and thus you have a wrong idea of that, but that's not a reason to behave like this.

All in all I wouldn't invest a single minute of my free time in creating such a .dat file with all the games I own you asked for, after seeing how you behave here. If you did that in other free software projects I am not suprised nobody wanted to help you.
KevinPP wrote:My issue is no matter where you go in this world people are the same and I thought everyone in the US were a-holes. That's cool, I formed my opinion about Deutchland after spending 13 years there in the military, the only good thing about my experiance was the Frankfurt red light district except that there the German prostitutes would rip you off every single time and the only ones you could trust were the Thai and Dominicans...everyone is the same.
Yeah all Germans are Nazis too. I know. Can't help it.

Seriously you shouldn't be suprised we don't take you serious when you behave like this.

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DrMcCoy
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Post by DrMcCoy »

KevinPP wrote:It was a simple request that was attacked.
A simple request that was full with pampered, privileged "OMFG do that!!!111" whining.

Seriously, you act like it's something you've earned, and we're maliciously withholding from you.
Newsflash: We don't owe you anything. And definitely not collecting a huge database of different game versions. Which, contrary to your ignorance, is not something you can throw together in 10 minutes.
KevinPP wrote:2, Where in your posts did you say you have a an Apple. I'm not an idiot requesting you get a windows machine that's just your sarcasm that is being rude not me.
No, you're an idiot who assumed that everyone heard of this ClrMame thing and could run it, ignorant that not everyone uses Windows.
KevinPP wrote:You could have just said this instead of the sarcasm, attacking
Well, what goes around, comes around...
KevinPP wrote:I don't have all the sets
As we tried to explain, "all the sets", including different platforms, languages and rereleases, is a huge number. We don't even know the actual number, let alone have a definite database already.
KevinPP wrote:There is no way anyone is going to believe that each and every one of you individually install and extract files for your own systems to develope and get working and everyone highly doubts you buy a disk for each individual developer
Well, I could invite you to have a looksie on the collection of Coktel Vision games (and especially Addy games) I've bought on flea markets and eBay over the last few years. Except that I wouldn't want you in my house.

In any case, I couldn't care less about what you think, believe or doubt if you even if you were just a pathetic little forum troll. Oh, wait...
KevinPP wrote:so it is resonable to assume that you share data files
You know, it doesn't surprise me that you've misspelled "reasonable" there...
KevinPP wrote:Go to any legit developer company and I guarantee that every piece of software has am original licence for their windows and compilers.
First of all, you should lose those rose-tinted glasses.

Second, if you're so offended by a "non-legit" developer team like we are, maybe you shouldn't hang out in their forums. Luckily, things like that don't show up on LinkedIn, amirite?
KevinPP wrote:I am trying to point out that no one believes that you yourselves that you own every single game your trying to emulate
[Citation needed].

Also, it seems to be that you're a bit confused about how ScummVM works on how the dev team is structured.
The games are not really "emulated", but each game engine is (pain-stakingly) taken apart and rebuild, by a few people each. Not every dev works on every engine.
Also also, owning the original is basically vital; REing a cracked copy is a seriously bad idea, there's no telling what a botched crack attempt did to the binary.

And again, there's no need for any of us to own all different versions of the games, I doubt any of us actually does. As long as the engine was unchanged, each different version should run, even if the engine dev never even heard of it. That's why ScummVM spits out checksums for unknown versions (after the filename-based fallback detector identified a game), so that the users can report them, even if the engine dev doesn't have that version.
KevinPP wrote:Alls I wanted was an acurate listing of the individual files to run the game
"All I wanted was the contents of all dictionaries produced, ever!"

Like explained before, that's a huge fucking lot. We don't have such a listing. We don't even know all different game versions. That's something you can spend a whole life on. It's fucking ludicrous for you to ask that. It's just completely insane.

Did you understand that? Please, read the previous paragraph again.
KevinPP wrote:I'll just take it as you just don't want to do it and call it a day.
Yes, please, keep having your fingers straight in your ears going LALALALALA. We have nothing better to do than to indulge your willfull ignorance.
KevinPP wrote:I get the same crap from ANY developer of free programs
Have you thought about that maybe, just maybe, the problem lies with you?

Seriously, if everyone and their dog tell you that you're an idiot, that should be an indication that you're probably not a nice person to hang around with.
KevinPP wrote:which boils down to it's free so accept what you get and like it.
Or maybe you should actually read what we wrote instead of substituting your own reality of prejudices.


And I'm so not touching your last ridiculous paragraph with a 10 foot pole.

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Julien
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Post by Julien »

The fact that:
  1. dats for ScummVM already exist
  2. are made by ROM collectors that happen to also distribute torrents of pirated games
  3. are only available on shady websites that couldn't care less about copyright
is a pretty good reason for us to stay as far away as possible from those data files and not associate the project with rom collectors or distributors of pirated games.

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Post by KevinPP »

OK...I'll just say in response.

You ALL have valid points.

ScummVM is a great product but I'll play my Amiga games with WinUAE, My kids can play all their other games it would have been nice to play Blues or Pajama Sam again but who really cares.

Scumm as in Lucasfilms program no longer applies to your program as it plays more Sierra and other programs then there are Scumm games. You are a multipurpose emulator just like MESS and just like MESS, other than a few games, you can run through other emulators.

So, instead of having duplicate crap all over my hard drive I'll just run my originals through a system I can keep better track of.

I never said anyone was a Nazi and Deutchland has some great things about it that I like over the US but the majority of people I met there were probably rude to me because I was from the US and not just another human being.
Anyhoo, they were a lot nicer than when I went down to Italy. There's is of course nothing better than the birthplace of people who enjoy crapping and pee'ng on people and somehow that's a sexual stimulant such is Deutchland.

Either way, thanks anyway...I'll find my own way.

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LordHoto
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Post by LordHoto »

KevinPP wrote:Scumm as in Lucasfilms program no longer applies to your program as it plays more Sierra and other programs then there are Scumm games. You are a multipurpose emulator just like MESS and just like MESS, other than a few games, you can run through other emulators.
Our FAQ has that covered.

Apart we are not an emulator at all. ScummVM is a set of engine reimplementations. It contains a few sound chip emulators though.
KevinPP wrote:So, instead of having duplicate crap all over my hard drive I'll just run my originals through a system I can keep better track of.
Fine then. We can't help you neglecting the datafiles page anyway. If you copied according to that page you would only have the required files. In fact no game probably contains duplicate files with different names, and if you have multiple game versions it is a bad idea to mix the data files, since they might differ in a way which break the game. So I am not sure where the "duplicate crap" should come from.
KevinPP wrote:I never said anyone was a Nazi and Deutchland has some great things about it that I like over the US but the majority of people I met there were probably rude to me because I was from the US and not just another human being.
I think it's still called Deutschland though.

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Post by DrMcCoy »

KevinPP wrote:My kids can play all their other games it would have been nice to play Blues or Pajama Sam again but who really cares.
I certainly don't.
KevinPP wrote:You are a multipurpose emulator just like MESS and just like MESS, other than a few games,
Except that unlike MESS, ScummVM is no emulator. The games ScummVm support have been reverse-engineered. We don't emulate an x86 with DOS like DOSBox, we don't emulate an Amiga like UAE, we don't emulate arcade hardware like MAME/MESS.

And the name ScummVM is kept for historic/popularity reasons. Again, doing your homework, i.e. reading our website (especially the FAQ this time), would have saved you some breath.
KevinPP wrote:So, instead of having duplicate crap all over my hard drive I'll just run my originals through a system I can keep better track of.
*shrug* Your choice.
KevinPP wrote:the majority of people I met there were probably rude to me because I was from the US and not just another human being.
Dunno. I for one would be rude to you no matter your country of origin. I don't like stupidity and willful ignorance; I'm funny that way.
KevinPP wrote:There's is of course nothing better than the birthplace of people who enjoy crapping and pee'ng on people and somehow that's a sexual stimulant such is Deutchland.
Not that I'm aware off. I always wondered how that urban legend came about.

The arguably most prominent one, due to a meme involving people filming reactions to it, is a Brazilian production, for example.

And giving that the US produces, what, 90% of all porn, the majority of scat porn is probably US-American in origin.

However, I fail to see what semi-obscure fetishes have to do with anything in this thread, besides giving you an outlet to further derail this troll-train.
KevinPP wrote:Either way, thanks anyway...I'll find my own way.
The door is that-away.

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