Myst : spaceship puzzle

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mysterious
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Myst : spaceship puzzle

Post by mysterious »

How about modifying spaceship puzzle so those tone deaf (as well as those totally deaf) can solve the game.

Image

I was thinking about modifying Mohawk engine so that it is more forgiving when trying to setup slides.
In that way it should be possible to solve the puzzle using photos from the web rather than by the sound.

In the Mohawk there is function void Myst::rocketCheckSolution()

In the function there are five test for each of the five sounds (slides) in the form form :
if (soundId != 9546)

solved = false;
I thought to change all those five test to following form :
if ( abs(soundId-9546)>5 )

solved = false;
There is bug report for this issue under :

https://bugs.scummvm.org/ticket/12601
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MusicallyInspired
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Re: Myst : spaceship puzzle

Post by MusicallyInspired »

My suggestion is to display some sort of OSD/subtitle text for the keyboard screen and the slider screen when a note is hit on the keyboard or selected on the slider (as in, musical notes A-F) if that's something that is possible. I'm not a fan of outright changing the solution though.

There are also sound effects in the Mechanical Age and Selenitic Age necessary for solving puzzles. The holographic display in the Mechanical Age chimes unique sound effects for different compass positions when simulating rotating the fortress. This is meant as a hint for the underground tram/maze puzzle in Selenitic which chimes the same sounds for the next direction you're supposed to go in for each node you stop at.
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Praetorian
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Re: Myst : spaceship puzzle

Post by Praetorian »

An optional feature enabling context subtitles would be the best solution for me.

And this would probably include the other sound cue based puzzles. I was lucky enough to discover the connection with Mechanical Age and Selenitic Age at the first playthrough, so didn't have to deal with trial and error. Still, I am guessing it's not a fun experience.

It would trivialize the solutions yes, but, again, it would be optional and address a specific accessibility issue.

It also seems to be what Cyan has done in the latest iteration of Myst already.
mysterious
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Re: Myst : spaceship puzzle

Post by mysterious »

Hello,

I totally and completely do not understand those comments that it is fixed in new releases of the game. I (and my brother) have bought the original game at the time of the release (~1994?) for the full price and I absolutely see no reason to pay again for the game just because they screwed it up in the original release.

Perhaps in the options menu add Checkeck box :

"For Hearing Impaired :
[x] Use fuzzy logic on the space ship puzzle (normally game uses strict binary logic)".

With my changes I was able to get past the space ship puzzle just using photos of the slides from the internet.

In the Mechanical Age sounds are helpful but NOT required to finish the puzzle as it is enough to simply time how long you press the button to rotate the fortress.

For rest of the Selenitic Age I do not comment for I had not finished it yet.
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Praetorian
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Re: Myst : spaceship puzzle

Post by Praetorian »

mysterious wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:54 am Hello,

I totally and completely do not understand those comments that it is fixed in new releases of the game. I (and my brother) have bought the original game at the time of the release (~1994?) for the full price and I absolutely see no reason to pay again for the game just because they screwed it up in the original release.
Yes, there seems to be a misunderstanding here. I pointed out how Cyan fixed this in the recent version, which means that any solution implemented for the *older* versions, could be implemented in a similar manner. Which is also exactly what I wrote.
I didn't urge anyone to buy the new version if they don't want to spend more money on a Myst title.

For the rest, we agree it should be an option. I don't particularly like your approach to the accessibility fix.
I'd prefer it's done with context subtitles which is Cyan's solution, even though it completely trivializes the puzzle -- or, if possible, done in another way which would maintain the puzzle's mechanic without trivializing it (maybe use some frequency pattern in the context subtitle instead of making it a match the music tone label -- I don't know, I am not a big fan of that either).

In any case, me not liking the offered approach is not a deal breaker in any way. If you go ahead and implement it as a PR, more people will pitch in and review it properly.
mysterious
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Re: Myst : spaceship puzzle

Post by mysterious »

Hello,

I have made patch.
It is available as diff in the bug report :

https://bugs.scummvm.org/ticket/12601
Last edited by mysterious on Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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MusicallyInspired
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Re: Myst : spaceship puzzle

Post by MusicallyInspired »

Just use subtitles. Don't use "fuzzy logic."
mysterious
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Re: Myst : spaceship puzzle

Post by mysterious »

MusicallyInspired wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:46 pm Just use subtitles. Don't use "fuzzy logic."
Dear MusicallyInspired, it is beyond my coding skills as well as beyond my hearing to come up with such an patch.

Besides the fuzzy logic is an option, by default is off. So there's no pressure to use it.

However if you do such an subtitles patch I'll be happy to test it.

-------------------
[possible spoilers below]

I have played whole game and pretty much the space ship is biggest stopper.

Fortress at mechanical age. You can time rotation and do it by trial and error. There are only 3 positions the fortress stops.
You do it only once, once you have whole code you don't go there again.

The maze at Selentic age -- you do the map. From the map you know that you keep right side most of the time.

Setting up the antenna dishes. You have visual, and the arrow keep flashing when you are close so you can fine tune without sound. Besides there's only 4 such dishes.

The code at the door to the maze (Selentic Age)... that's another hard one but ... there are only 4 sounds, so it is possible to do it. But it could be an candidate for fuzzy logic :)
mysterious
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Re: Myst : spaceship puzzle

Post by mysterious »

Case solved.

It was in PR : https://github.com/scummvm/scummvm/pull/3056.

Now it is in source tree.

If you want to use it you press "Options" and then
mark checkbox : [x] "Fuzzy Logic in SpaceShip Active"
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Re: Myst : spaceship puzzle

Post by Praetorian »

mysterious wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:15 am Case solved.

It was in PR : https://github.com/scummvm/scummvm/pull/3056.

Now it is in source tree.

If you want to use it you press "Options" and then
mark checkbox : [x] "Fuzzy Logic in SpaceShip Active"
Well done. This is a success story that I really enjoyed.
Me not preferring this particular approach aside, it is a nice-to-have optional solution that may help people past that one infamous puzzle (or more).
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Re: Myst : spaceship puzzle

Post by MusicallyInspired »

It is good to have an option of some kind. :)
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Re: Myst : spaceship puzzle

Post by mincabenj »

Why would you want to modify it? Isn't it more interesting to resolve the puzzle by sound than using photos from the internet? Just asking because I'm curious.
I like when there are a few options, tho, and I can choose what I like most. In general, I prefer when they put logic games or puzzles. It's much more interesting to play this way. If it were possible to put a jigsaw puzzle, like jigsaw puzzles australia, I think I would be at the computer all day, haha.
Okay, I got a little distracted. I hope for your understanding and answer. Thanks in advance!
Last edited by mincabenj on Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Praetorian
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Re: Myst : spaceship puzzle

Post by Praetorian »

mincabenj wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:51 pm Why would you want to modify it? Isn't it more interesting to resolve the puzzle by sound than using photos from the internet? Just asking because I'm curious.
As explained, and now as implemented, this is just an option which by default is disabled.

If, enabled, the player can still go by sound to solve the puzzle but the game is more forgiving -- it allows to get the solution within an acceptable range and not the exact music notes. This is essentially an accessibility option.

For someone who has trouble discerning or hearing the musical notes, an walkthrough with screenshots off the Internet would work as a guide and this option would make it easier to get the solution right since, as written above, it will allow for a margin of error for every note.
mincabenj
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Re: Myst : spaceship puzzle

Post by mincabenj »

Praetorian wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:58 pm
mincabenj wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:51 pm Why would you want to modify it? Isn't it more interesting to resolve the puzzle by sound than using photos from the internet? Just asking because I'm curious.
I like when there are a few options, tho, and I can choose what I like most. In general, I prefer when they put logic games or puzzles. It's much more interesting to play this way. If it were possible to put a jigsaw puzzle, like jigsaw puzzles australia, I think I would be at the computer all day, haha.
Okay, I got a little distracted. I hope for your understanding and answer. Thanks in advance!
As explained, and now as implemented, this is just an option which by default is disabled.

If, enabled, the player can still go by sound to solve the puzzle but the game is more forgiving -- it allows to get the solution within an acceptable range and not the exact music notes. This is essentially an accessibility option.

For someone who has trouble discerning or hearing the musical notes, an walkthrough with screenshots off the Internet would work as a guide and this option would make it easier to get the solution right since, as written above, it will allow for a margin of error for every note.
Oh, I didn't think about it. Now I understand. Thanks!
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